Name that Frame
- greggie-e
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 2:31 pm
- Location: Perth
Name that Frame
Postby greggie-e » Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:18 pm
I have a mystery frame I am trying to identify.
Non-original parts are:
the wheels, they are alloy 700's. Obviously not original.
It came with a set of BMX handlebars, I have put something more appropriate on.
The seat is not original.
Items of note:
the rear rack is a part of the frame
There is an old sturmey archer pulley under the seat.
The chainguard is an Ardex like this one
http://cgi.benl.ebay.be/Ardex-Solid-All ... 7C294%3A50
a larger picture here.
http://s726.photobucket.com/albums/ww27 ... AG0233.jpg
Any ideas would be greatfully accepted.
Cheers,
Greg
- hartleymartin
- Posts: 5153
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- Location: Fairfield, NSW
Re: Name that Frame
Postby hartleymartin » Fri Jul 03, 2009 5:36 pm
Could you please take close-up pictures of the head-tube and the lugs? There is not an awful lot that can be told just from that picture.
http://raleightwenty.webs.com - the top web resource for the Raleigh Twenty
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Re: Name that Frame
Postby cludence » Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:07 pm
Hard to see much else.
Karen.
- sharktamin
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Re: Name that Frame
Postby sharktamin » Sun Jul 05, 2009 1:12 am
Oh and some nice powered porn in that photobucket, too
- greggie-e
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- Location: Perth
Re: Name that Frame
Postby greggie-e » Mon Jul 06, 2009 12:21 pm
http://s726.photobucket.com/albums/ww27 ... AG0253.jpg
http://s726.photobucket.com/albums/ww27 ... AG0252.jpg
sorry the shots are a little blurry but you get the idea.
I think it is european as the older attachments seem to all be european, but that is only a desperate guess.
Any ideas to look for sneaky identifying marks?
- hartleymartin
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Re: Name that Frame
Postby hartleymartin » Mon Jul 06, 2009 12:51 pm
http://raleightwenty.webs.com - the top web resource for the Raleigh Twenty
- fatherofmany
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Re: Name that Frame
Postby fatherofmany » Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:09 pm
frame double butted & welded. no lugs, interesting find.
Anything distingushing under the bottom bracket, (or inside the headset or bb)?
- WyvernRH
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Re: Name that Frame
Postby WyvernRH » Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:26 pm
'Welded' frame eh? Haven't heard that term for a while! Unlike most aluminium frames which are Tig-welded, steel frames that were built without lugs had the tubes fillet brazed with sif-bronze (apart from a few experiments). If you were VERY good like Tony Oliver you could fillet braze using silver braze and produce lugless Reynolds 753 frames. Whatever, this type of frame always used to be called 'welded' and lugged frames 'brazed' all the way upto the early 1980's in the UK when the term fell out of use as it got people confused when the Tig-welded Cannondales hit the market about that time.hartleymartin wrote:Welded frame by the looks of it then.
The fact that this is a lugless frame tends to point to it being of reasonable quality as it is harder to do than building with lugs and you have to mitre the tubes accurately, no getting away with putting rough angles on the end of a tube and stuffing it in a lug (hello Malvern Star...) Generally this method of construction was only practiced for a few reasons:
(1) No lugs available (especially just post WWII)
(2) Odd frame configuration - not relevant here.
(3) Save weight (nice idea but.... bike folklore mostly)
(4) Thought to be stronger (more bike folklore... )
(6) If you were really good with the torch joint cleanup was minimal so production could be faster on a jigged setup (no lugs to pin remember...)
(5) Model differentiation, looking good, etc - main reason IMHO after (1) and (2)
I have a couple of Claud butlers from the 50's built this way, Claud always had at least one lugless model available as did several other manuafacturers at this time. It seemed to go out of fashion in the late 50's early 60's or maybe the building costs just got too high for non-bespoke frames? Hand-built bespoke frames like the 'Jack Taylor' frames produced by the three brothers were made right up to modern times. I doubt this is a Claud as this looks like it has a seat clamp bolt whereas Clauds always had a separate clampring to hold the seat post.
The continental builders, the French especially, were very keen on the lugless style frame from the 30's up to the 60's, and if that fancy chain guard is original I would put odds on it being maybe French or Italian. What are the makes of the brakes and hubs? Also if you dissemble the bike you can tell from the headset and b'bracket threads if it is French/Italian or 'standard' English (or Oz of course...)
Did any Aussie builders build lugless, I would imagine someone tried it at some point?
Cheers
Richard
- greggie-e
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Re: Name that Frame
Postby greggie-e » Mon Jul 06, 2009 3:57 pm
I just had a look for the frame number that I was sure I saw last week. But it doesn't have one.
Here are some closer shots of parts of the bike.
http://s726.photobucket.com/albums/ww27 ... AG0258.jpg
http://s726.photobucket.com/albums/ww27 ... AG0260.jpg
http://s726.photobucket.com/albums/ww27 ... AG0261.jpg
http://s726.photobucket.com/albums/ww27 ... AG0262.jpg
http://s726.photobucket.com/albums/ww27 ... AG0263.jpg
http://s726.photobucket.com/albums/ww27 ... AG0264.jpg
http://s726.photobucket.com/albums/ww27 ... AG0265.jpg
I had the BB off last week, I should have checked the threads then!
I am thinking that it might be a hand built custom frame. The rack on the back has special hooks on them for what must be panniers.
Where the seat post goes into the frame does have lugs for the bolt.
there is nothing under the BB.
If I lightly sand the frame I may be able to take the paint off and see
- hartleymartin
- Posts: 5153
- Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:56 pm
- Location: Fairfield, NSW
Re: Name that Frame
Postby hartleymartin » Mon Jul 06, 2009 4:35 pm
http://raleightwenty.webs.com - the top web resource for the Raleigh Twenty
- WyvernRH
- Posts: 3179
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- Location: Newcastle NSW
Re: Name that Frame
Postby WyvernRH » Mon Jul 06, 2009 5:50 pm
Hmmm, brazed on rack, rear facing pump pegs on the seat tube and what looks like a vertical bolt mounting for the rear brake (or is it just for the mudguards?)greggie-e wrote:the brakes are Wienmann, as is one of the brake levers.
I just had a look for the frame number that I was sure I saw last week. But it doesn't have one.
I had the BB off last week, I should have checked the threads then!
I am thinking that it might be a hand built custom frame. The rack on the back has special hooks on them for what must be panniers.
Where the seat post goes into the frame does have lugs for the bolt.
there is nothing under the BB.
If I lightly sand the frame I may be able to take the paint off and see
looking more like a early French tourer by the minute. That rear brake now, does the mount for the brake go through a hole in the brake bridge front to back as normal or, as is suggested by the picture, mount on a bracket which is then bolted to a vertical bolt thru the brake bridge? That is very French feature, I have a set of Mafacs that came off an old Peugeot that have a similar mounting. If so the brakes may well be original.
To me it looks like it may be a tourer, possibly by some small framebuilder on the continent from anytime from 1935 upto 1975, it is quite like a late 1930's Reyhand randonneur bicycle that a friend of mine has. I think you really need to send photos to someone who knows a bit about French bicycles like Jan Heine to get an opinion. Remember, like the UK there were hundreds of small builders all over Europe and a lot of the best, the 'constructeurs' were WAY ahead of what most people elsewhere were doing in the pre-war period.
When you dissembled the b/bkt if the fixed cup (r/hand) unscrewed anti-clockwise (normal way) then it is a French or Italian thread. 'Normal' fixed cups unscrew clockwise as they are a l/handed thread. The headset can be a bit dodgy as a dating device if the bike is from Europe as they used the 'Continental' style headset from very early on, pre 1920's I think (that's why us Anglophiles call that style 'Continental'...) Also as the French/Italian headsets are a different size/thread and hard to get people often toss the forks and fit a new set of British threaded forks and headset as a quick fix. If you have a standard headset locknut, try it on the forks, it should not fit if the forks are not English thread.
Dunno about the forks tho' they look a bit odd. can you get a good full length picture from the side and in front?
Cheers
Richard
- greggie-e
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 2:31 pm
- Location: Perth
Re: Name that Frame
Postby greggie-e » Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:35 am
The rear brake mounting is a verticle bolt.
So that is one vote for the french and one for the british (or Australian).
I actually took it for a little ride last night. The riding position is very upright and I was a little wobbley (due to the unusual position).
I will try and get a good quality full length picture.
I also noticed that it has a series of small clips that run the length of the bike from front to back.
They can only be for wiring for lights. Two even had small bits of electrical wire still in them.
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Re: Name that Frame
Postby elk » Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:43 am
Hi Richard . I'm still working on acquiring a Malvern Star track bike from the 50's . A lugless five star .
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