Help identifying frame - Pics Up

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jaseyjase
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Help identifying frame - Pics Up

Postby jaseyjase » Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:45 pm

So i picked up a complete bike from a local guy last night, looks to be painted over sometime during its life, seems light-ish. Came with a mix of parts, obviously swapped during its time of use. A brief description below
  • steel lugged frame
    internal cable routing on the top tube with the holes facing out towards the right
    27.0 SR seat post with a Tioga seat
    Campagnolo Headset, i think C-Record
    GB Stem
    Some japanese drops bars
    Shimano 105 brake levers
    Shimano 600 RD and FD, the front using a clamp on, system.
    Shimano 600 left side crank, and some random drive side crank
    Campagnolo Omega/Strada wheelset with Campagnolo QR skewers


Of course Ill take pics when i get home tonight, but i thought id get you guys thinking. I didnt think internal cable routing would be that common on older bikes, im thinking this one maybe early 90s? The list of parts dont really help because of the mix, and the shimano 600 looks to be newer rather then the older style. Ill also try get serial numbers etc one ive stripped it.

It might not even be retro enough to be posted here, mods please remove if see fit.

jase.
Last edited by jaseyjase on Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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jaseyjase
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Re: Help identifying frame - Pics Up

Postby jaseyjase » Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:17 pm

ok, heres the pics.

The bike
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13?
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Forks look goode, tange, chrome underneath.
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Campagnolo headset, with a tange levin top nut, c-record? Omega Strada Hardox, Record hubs
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Shimano parts, 600 brakes, 600 left side crank only :evil: 105 shift levers and brake levers
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GB stem, says britsish made?
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Powerpro bb?
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The more i think about it, the more the bike seems like a 'spares' bike, random parts chucked at it. The frames a mystery, lugs a hint to anyone? Its nice and light, seems like a quality frame.

any help would be great guys.

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mpa61
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Re: Help identifying frame - Pics Up

Postby mpa61 » Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:48 am

Just looking at the lug work, it appears to be similar to the ABENI I have here. Funnily enough, I have been struggling to find info on these bikes for a while, and now there have been 3 of the buggers appear on this forum in the last couple of weeks. (and before anyone mentions "email John"...I have and now waiting for a reply). A dead give away is if there is an "A" stamped into the fork crown?

I don't suppose you want to sell or swap the rear brakes for one the same, but slightly shorter reach?

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jaseyjase
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Re: Help identifying frame - Pics Up

Postby jaseyjase » Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:43 am

nah, no 'A' on the fork crown, the forks actually look like a seperate item, full chrome underneath. Where as the frame has a few more different coloured layers of paint. Ill fully strip it down and see if i can find any markings, at the moment all i can see is a '13' on top of the seat tube, and a 'J280' on the bottom bracket.

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jaseyjase
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Re: Help identifying frame - Pics Up

Postby jaseyjase » Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:02 am

oops, forgot to mention, ill keeping the brakes for now. Although the shimano 600 left crank is up for sale if anyone wants before it goes to ebay.

jase

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toff
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Re: Help identifying frame - Pics Up

Postby toff » Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:42 pm

Headset is a C-Record era one, but not C-Record or Croce D'Aune since there are no holes in the top body. Probably not Chorus either since most years they also had holes. Probably Athena, from late 80s.

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familyguy
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Re: Help identifying frame - Pics Up

Postby familyguy » Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:16 pm

27.0 matches with a Tange Infinity tube sizing among others. Its not the all-sainted 27.2 that apparently signifies top level steel. Is there any rifling inside the seat tube that you can see? This will only point you to a steel type, not a manufacturer or brand. Although I think Tange only did rifled steerer tubes, not frame tubes.

The seat stay/seat tube joint is probably one of your key pointers to a maker. Seat stay/tube joint, internal routing, and cutout lugs. Maybe a Nishiki? (Did they use Tange?)

Just re-looked at the photos. No braze-ons for down-tube shifters, or have they been ground off? That'd make it older than 80's perhaps.

How big is it?

Jim

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jaseyjase
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Re: Help identifying frame - Pics Up

Postby jaseyjase » Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:27 pm

Toff, cheers, too bad theres no top nut :oops:

FG, ill measure tonight, and check for rifling in the seat tube. I initially though the internal routing was a home drill job, looked a little rough, but i didnt see any braze ons so i figured mustve been from factory. Defintiely no braze ons on the down tube either, was looking for marks of something being cut, or grinded off, nothing as yet.

Ill use some paint stripper to get back to bare metal, hoopefully find more info.

The forks looks to be chromed, will paint stripper affect the chrome? it looks to be in real good nic under the pain, so i dont want to ruin it.

cheers jase

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ghettro
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Re: Help identifying frame - Pics Up

Postby ghettro » Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:22 pm

Hey mate, nice one looks like a good frame. how much does it weigh? Was this the one you were after some cranks for? AFAIK rifling/splined tubes was a Miyata thing.

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jaseyjase
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Re: Help identifying frame - Pics Up

Postby jaseyjase » Thu Jul 16, 2009 5:07 pm

jon, havnt weighed it yet, but im guessing it would be about the 2-2.5kgs? ill weigh it tonight.

I wanted the super mighty's for my fixie :mrgreen:

i actualy saw a miyata on sunday at the local markets, didnt take note of the lugs though, i saw an Indie Hawk as well, definitely not an Indie.

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familyguy
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Re: Help identifying frame - Pics Up

Postby familyguy » Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:59 pm

ghettro wrote:Hey mate, nice one looks like a good frame. how much does it weigh? Was this the one you were after some cranks for? AFAIK rifling/splined tubes was a Miyata thing.
Not a Miyata. Seat stay/lug detail doesnt look right. Miyata did do rifling, they called it Spline Triple Butted tubing. Rifling was rather narrow, from what I've read. My dad has one of the STB frames, but I've never looked inside it. Columbus and Tange both did/do rifled tubing. The Tange ends and stamped steerer tube say full tange frame though. Clean it up, it should go well.

About the cable routing. Most manufacturers had a braze-on fitting (see here under the name wire cover) at each end to take the cable ferrule. It may well be a home jobbie :?

Jim

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jaseyjase
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Re: Help identifying frame - Pics Up

Postby jaseyjase » Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:13 am

Picked up some paint stripper and laid it on

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After a few hours, used some scotch bright to rub down the peeling paint. Mistake no.1 :oops: The chrome fork got scratched up, not so much scratched, but more dulled. Im too pissed off to take pics at the moment, will probably do so later when ive calmed down :evil: Any ideas if chrome can be polished back up? i tried some autosol, didnt do much. Any help would be great

Anyway, the scotch bright was fine for the frame, obviously because it aint chromed. Frame came in at about 1950 grams. the fork at 890 grams.

The only other markings i can find on the frame


Think i can just make out 'shimano' on the rear drop outs?
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Top of seat tube dosnt say 13, it says 73. And not splined/rifled.
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Bottom bracket dosnt say J280, its BJ280.
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And the new markings ive found were on the lugs on the headtube. Not sure if its W/E or C/M ?
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Image

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familyguy
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Re: Help identifying frame - Pics Up

Postby familyguy » Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:16 pm

jaseyjase wrote:After a few hours, used some scotch bright to rub down the peeling paint. Mistake no.1 :oops: The chrome fork got scratched up, not so much scratched, but more dulled. Im too pissed off to take pics at the moment, will probably do so later when ive calmed down :evil: Any ideas if chrome can be polished back up? i tried some autosol, didnt do much. Any help would be great
Bummer. Those sloping crown forks look good all chromed up. You might have to get them re-chromed if it wont polish. Was it damaged before it was painted, maybe thats why it was done?
jaseyjase wrote:Frame came in at about 1950 grams. the fork at 890 grams.
1950g for bare frame? Tange Prestige? Linky.

Decent quality with the Shimano rear dropouts and Tange fork ends. Lack of down tube braze-ons is a curly one. You wouldnt have thought they'd have been left off a quality 90's frame. Even a late 80's frame. Not on purpose anyway. The 73 number stamped into the lug would be the angle of the seat tube relative to the top tube. The lug maker would have had several different angles.

Build it, ride it, enjoy it. It'll look smart painted up in a metallic or a solid bright colour.

Jim

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jaseyjase
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Re: Help identifying frame - Pics Up

Postby jaseyjase » Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:08 pm

Jim,

Tell me about it, i got real excited when i saw the shiny stuff under the paint before i started rubbing with the scotch brite. In my excitement to get to the shiny stuff, i tried rubbing it back instead of applying more stripper...such an idiot. And yeh, the sloping crown does look quite hawt. If i cant polish it up to how it was, think ill just paint over it :oops: But definitely wasnt damaged before i rubbed it, even if i want to tell myself that

Tange Prestige, hmm, maybe the kitchen food scale may not be entirely accruate, 1987grams sounds better, i know it was just shy of 2kgs. ill look carefully again once its completely stripped, if they were cut off, they did an extremely smooth job, cos i cant see no reminance or gouge marks from grinding any brazings off. The only other markings are 2 sets of drilled holes for bidons, one on the seat tube and another set on the down tube.

Yeh, the 73 was on the lugs rather then the tubes themselves.

It definitely feels like a quality frame, with some deccent forks, ill most likely transfer my running gear over from my repco once ready.

But i really want to know what frame it is!

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jaseyjase
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Re: Help identifying frame - Pics Up

Postby jaseyjase » Fri Jul 17, 2009 3:18 pm

seems like shoguns and centurions use tange prestige, but they sound like a rebadged nishki or repcos? im thinking are the lugs any indication having the cut out?

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il padrone
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Re: Help identifying frame - Pics Up

Postby il padrone » Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:02 pm

jaseyjase wrote:And the new markings ive found were on the lugs on the headtube. Not sure if its W/E or C/M ?
Google is your friend :wink:
Wikipedia wrote:Lugs are usually stamped with a letter or symbol code identifying the maker, and possibly the angle. For example "BCM" indicates Bocama of France.
Mandatory helmet law?
"An unjustified and unethical imposition on a healthy activity."

brauluver
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Re: Help identifying frame - Pics Up

Postby brauluver » Fri Jul 17, 2009 5:27 pm

MMMM...French lugs,Japanese fork ends and dropouts, and maybe Tange tubing.
Certainly a unique blend of components.

Paint it up and produce your own decal.

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jaseyjase
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Re: Help identifying frame - Pics Up

Postby jaseyjase » Fri Jul 17, 2009 5:43 pm

Padrone comes through once again, BCM, now i see it !

French lugs, wow, wonder if this frame was a custom?

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singlespeedscott
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Re: Help identifying frame - Pics Up

Postby singlespeedscott » Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:01 pm

brauluver wrote:MMMM...French lugs,Japanese fork ends and dropouts, and maybe Tange tubing.
Certainly a unique blend of components.

Paint it up and produce your own decal.
Sounds like a typical bastardised Australian build. My Berretto has Columbus SLX tubes, Cinelli BB and Suntour Superb-pro tips. Joys of being a Euro nation in asia. We get to pick and choose the best from both worlds.
Image

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jaseyjase
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Re: Help identifying frame - Pics Up

Postby jaseyjase » Sat Jul 18, 2009 1:05 am

yeh, think im just gonna give up on the search and just build the bike already.

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jaseyjase
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Re: Help identifying frame - Pics Up

Postby jaseyjase » Sat Jul 18, 2009 7:29 pm

FamilyGuys's link got me curious, so i re-weighed, the frame came in at 1984, so i think a tange prestige is quite likely.

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This however got me thinking about my Swansea frame, holding it up it felt lighter, so threw it on the scales for sh1ts and giggles. Forks came in at 772gms an the bare frame at 1886gms.

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From the link FG sent, the closest thing i could find was either the Ishiwata 017 at 1870gms or the colunbus PL at 1845. Anyone know what reynolds models weigh that could be close to the 1886?

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WyvernRH
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Re: Help identifying frame - Pics Up

Postby WyvernRH » Sat Jul 18, 2009 8:28 pm

jaseyjase wrote:FamilyGuys's link got me curious, so i re-weighed, the frame came in at 1984, so i think a tange prestige is quite likely.
This however got me thinking about my Swansea frame, holding it up it felt lighter, so threw it on the scales for sh1ts and giggles. Forks came in at 772gms an the bare frame at 1886gms.
From the link FG sent, the closest thing i could find was either the Ishiwata 017 at 1870gms or the colunbus PL at 1845. Anyone know what reynolds models weigh that could be close to the 1886?
Doesn't have to be 531, could be Accles and Pollock or a couple of other British manufacturers who were around at the time.
If you find a site that details their tubesets post it up cos I would like to know!
Cheers
Richard

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