rkelsen wrote:toff wrote:ve safari wrote:So it's not a Colnago frame? Can you tell from the crappy pics, or is the crappy components that give it away?
Both.
Give-aways (even to my highly untrained eye):
Lugs - Colnago lugs usually have little club symbols on them,
Fork crown - Not very Euro in appearance (in fact it looks like the fork from a hi-ten clunker), and again no club symbols on it,
Downtube shifters - On most if not all of the Colnagos I've seen, they've always been the brazed on type as opposed to the clip ons shown here,
Componentry - I don't think Colnago ever used Dia-Compe brakes, Sakae cranks or Hsinlung handlebars - but I'm happy to be proven wrong.
But at least the sticker looks legit!
The whole reason Colnago started using lugs with trefoils is because every man and his donkey was whacking stickers on erzatz frames and selling them as genuine Colnago. You have to go back to the 60s before you find a high-end Colnago without identifiable markings cut into the frame. If you know the Colnago timeline, there are clues all over every Colnago about its pedigree, and period of manufacture. It is usually possible to determine from looking at a Colnago frame what model it is, and its year of manufacture to with at least 5 years, even if it has been resprayed.
I won't discuss parts, except to say that it would be very unlikely for someone to remove all the high-end parts off a Colnago and replace them with the junk this bike is wearing. Parts on a frame will give you strong clues, but they cannot be considered conclusive. Even Colnago pantographed parts don't prove anything, especially with the dirth of fake panto'd parts all over fleabay these days.
This particular frame has the following giveaways (or at least very strong warning signs).
1) 3 top tube cable guides. Colnagos almost always have just 2 if they have them at all. Ernesto did not want to overstress the delicate tubing by heating it up to braze on an extra guide, so 2 is all you got with Colnago. The 2 guides are placed a considerable distance from the ends of the tubes, to cause the least amount of heat stress to the joints. If you see a 3 cable guides, you may still have a Colnago, but only if it is a ~1972 model. Colnago went to 2 cable guides very early (~1974). In the 1960s and the very early 70s there were no braze on cable guides, and riders clipped their top tube cables. Later models (~1988) top tube cables went internal.
So there are genuine Colnagos with 3 top tube cable guides, but they are very rare, and dripping with Colnago specific details. There is a good example on
Fleabay right now. Don't worry about date the seller is quoting. He's wrong - it's about five year's earlier. If there are 3 cable guides on the top tube, you need to make sure that the deraulleur cable guides are brazed on the top of the bottom bracket, not under it. The orange one is therefore correct.
Apart from the top tube guides, Colnagos are creatures of their time. Early ones have few if any braze-ons. Late ones have braze ons for 2 bottle cages, downtube shifters, front derailleur, cable routing under or over the bottom bracket, internal cables, aero cables, brakes at the bottom bracket, etc. You can't tell a Colnago by whether it has a certain braze-on or not. That just dates it. However, certain styles og braze-ons do not belong on Colnagos. For example, have a look at
this frame. It has all the hallmarks of being a 1973 Super, except that it has mid 90s paint, and some brazed-on cable guides that take the brake cable through the top tube. Those cable covers are not right for a Colnago. They look more Eddy Merckx than Colnago. It is clear that this is a 1973 Colnago frame that was customised for internal brake routing, and then sent back to Colnago for a repaint, probably sometime in the mid 90s.
2) Lugs. Colnagos all used quality cast lugs, not pressed lugs. Most framesets had at least one lug with a trefoil cutout, and usually there was another stamp or cutout on the frame somewhere. Colnago lugs typically have known shapes and are very recogniseable once you've seen a few. They are carefully filed too, not like the ugly lugs on the gaspipium frame. There were a couple of low-end Colnagos in the 80s without Colnago markings. The International and the Sport both had no markings, since it wasn't worth the effort to make fake versions of fairly low-end bikes. However, these bikes still had decent cast and filed lugs. It is interesting to note that the new steel Colnago singlespeed bike that came out this year, - called the Super of all things - has no trefoils on it, since it is made in Asia.
3) Paint. Part of making it hard for fraudsters to sell Colnagos was to paint on the brand name instead of using stick on decals. High end Colnagos will almost always have painted main tube brand identification. Some, like my 90s Tecnoses also have painted "Ernesto" signatures. In any event, Colnago paint is the good stuff, and so complicated as to make it too hard for anyone to bother counterfitting. Who would counterfit this paint job?
.
If you see Colnago stickers, not Colnago paint, it's caveat emptor!
4) Seatstay caps - usually unique enough to be recognised as Colnago, if not actually marked Colnago. I have no clue what is on those gaspipe bike's caps.
5) Dropouts (or ends) were pretty much always Campagnolo on Colnagos, not cheap pressed metal. They typically say "Campagnolo" on the back ones, and "Colnago" on the fork dropouts.
6) Fork crown is almost always marked with the brand, either on the outside, or on hidden tangs underneath. There have only been a handful of fork crowns ever used, and the gaspipe bike doesn't have one of the recognised shapes.
7) Colnagos don't come with eyelets for panniers or mudguards. Even low-end ones were built as pure racing machines, with racing geometry too, not relaxed seattube and headtube angles.
Probably a whole bunch more things that I don't remember, but which would jump out and smack me in the mouth if I were to see it on a bike... (Like the absence of a trefoil cutout under the bottom bracket on any pre 1990 Colnago.)
Everything I just said has exceptions. If you had the cash and wanted something customised on your bike, you could tell them, and your frame would get it, but in my experience the vast majority of frames do not break the Colnago rules. After all, Colnago prices made any factory customisation prohibitively expensive.
Feelthewheel, I am sure that is John Abeni's son Alan listing thats wheel, or at least one of the Europa cycles employees. I'm also pretty sure I've seen the wheel in the shop. I reckon it's a genine attempt to be honest, but perhaps they should check with the boss before they list huh? The fact is that the hub is a Colnago 30th anniversary hub. It's a very rare part, and worth every cent being asked. It is much rarer and more valuable than a Campag 1956 hub. I doubt it will go for what it's worth because it is mis-labelled. If anyone wants to make a buck, they can buy that wheel and list it again correctly.
I would have been all over it if it were a pair. (And this time I'm serious!)
