Tollis frames x 2

rogerrabbit
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Tollis frames x 2

Postby rogerrabbit » Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:25 pm

I have recently acquired these two frames from Ben, and they are just my size! 59cm and 60cm square ctc.

One is mid 50's I think, and the other with the Nervex lugs is mid 60's. Both have paint in poor condition but the hand painted decals are good. Both frames have had various touchups over the years. The parts on the bike were what I had lying around. Yes, the seatpost is plastic! It takes a 26.6 which I am now trying to find one of.

The 60's one
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The 50's one is below. Note the broken pump mounts. There is a RHS shifter brazeon, but not a LHS one.
The rear dropout is threaded but not with a Campag thread. I assume Cyclo, but not sure. This one has lovely round chainstays that taper very quickly from the BB. Not evident in the photos sorry.

I am in the market for parts to build this up over the coming months. I have wheels, but that is about it.

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hartleymartin
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Re: Tollis frames x 2

Postby hartleymartin » Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:08 pm

Firstly: NICE FRAMES!

Secondly: I recall seeing a Youtube film where someone had an early 8 or 10-speed, where the front chainrings were shifted by some sort of "slap" lever on the seat-tube and the rear was shifted from a lever mounted on the downtube (as they are today before silly things like brifters were introduced).
Martin Christopher Hartley

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spirito
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Re: Tollis frames x 2

Postby spirito » Mon Oct 12, 2009 1:19 pm

hartleymartin wrote:

I recall seeing a Youtube film where someone had an early 8 or 10-speed, where the front chainrings were shifted by some sort of "slap" lever on the seat-tube and the rear was shifted from a lever mounted on the downtube (as they are today before silly things like brifters were introduced).


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Cranky Jim wrote: God did not invent gears. Men invented gears ... because we are not gods.

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WyvernRH
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Re: Tollis frames x 2

Postby WyvernRH » Mon Oct 12, 2009 1:42 pm

hartleymartin wrote:Firstly: NICE FRAMES!

Secondly: I recall seeing a Youtube film where someone had an early 8 or 10-speed, where the front chainrings were shifted by some sort of "slap" lever on the seat-tube and the rear was shifted from a lever mounted on the downtube (as they are today before silly things like brifters were introduced).


Or possibly like this?

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Sorry, I wasn't allowed to borrow a dolly for this shot, far too close to that dirty chain! :P

Cheers
Richard

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spirito
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Re: Tollis frames x 2

Postby spirito » Mon Oct 12, 2009 2:40 pm

WyvernRH wrote:

Sorry, I wasn't allowed to borrow a dolly for this shot, far too close to that dirty chain! :P



I shake my head at myself ... playing with dolls !!! and Simplex suicide shifters. :lol:

Richard, if I may ask you a few q's with regard the Tollis above. Is that a Cyclo dropout rear? Would that work equally well with either a Benelux with thread mount or one of the chain series Simplex like the TdF? I can't recall but I think it's a threaded mount.

And is the shifter boss proprietary too? It looks like a special mount for shifters other than Campagnolo. I am only familiar with clamp on shifters for this period and earlier.

The lower frame has these very distinct hanger and shifter boss and I think for Roger to know what mech's are suited will help make it easier to build up. Much appreciated if you could lend an eye. :wink:
Cranky Jim wrote: God did not invent gears. Men invented gears ... because we are not gods.

cludence
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Re: Tollis frames x 2

Postby cludence » Mon Oct 12, 2009 2:49 pm

Dolls now Spirito???

Karen.

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spirito
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Re: Tollis frames x 2

Postby spirito » Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:12 pm

cludence wrote:Dolls now Spirito???



Careful... she might hear you :)
Cranky Jim wrote: God did not invent gears. Men invented gears ... because we are not gods.

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WyvernRH
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Re: Tollis frames x 2

Postby WyvernRH » Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:09 pm

[quote="spirito
Richard, if I may ask you a few q's with regard the Tollis above. Is that a Cyclo dropout rear? Would that work equally well with either a Benelux with thread mount or one of the chain series Simplex like the TdF? I can't recall but I think it's a threaded mount.

And is the shifter boss proprietary too? It looks like a special mount for shifters other than Campagnolo. I am only familiar with clamp on shifters for this period and earlier.

The lower frame has these very distinct hanger and shifter boss and I think for Roger to know what mech's are suited will help make it easier to build up. Much appreciated if you could lend an eye. :wink:[/quote]

Well I had a quick cruise around the shed and compared the picture to various bikes. The dropout has a had a bit of a hard life but on first glance I would say the hanger is a Cyclo/Benelux with the sharp 'nose' above the hanger. BUT if you blow the picture up, does it say 'SIMPLEX' around the back of the axle slot? :? As a sort of answer to your question, both Simplex and most Cyclo/Benelux racing gears will fit either a Simplex hanger or a Cyclo hanger (the Cyclo/Benelux gears were copies of the Simplex geometry anyway) The dropouts are almost identical except some Benelux gears had a threaded hanger and some didn't.
MK7/8 and later seem to always have had a threaded hanger (not always the same thead :roll: ) Early to mid 50's gears (on a small sample) seem not to require a threaded hanger, while some earlier gears do have a threaded hanger. Puzzling....
Simplex As far as I can tell never had a thread.
The gear boss is a little unusual, they were normally 'tab' types that held the boss clear of the tube at this point in time but this looks more like a later Campag boss or one for the big diameter touring type Cyclo changer levers. A couple more pictues at another angle might help.
Would you like me to post pictures of various Cyclo/benelux gears?

Cheers
Richard

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Re: Tollis frames x 2

Postby rogerrabbit » Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:47 pm

Hi, thanks for the great info Richard, and to all the other dolls that contributed!

I have had a closer look at the dropout. It looks like the derailleur hanger has been hand brazed onto the dropout. No Simplex markings to be seen anywhere. The hanger is threaded, but a campag derailleur only threads in a few turns before it binds.

The shifter boss has a slightly bigger than campag square section, while it takes a screw that is much smaller than a campag one. No more pics tonight, but I may be able to get some more taken tomorrow.

Some pics of suitable derailleurs would be appreciated. It is a lightweight frame, so I would like to fit it with suitable lightweight racing components of the day. A front shifter with the lever of the derailleur would be nice. Are they the correct period? Otherwise I guess it will be a 4 speed bike.

The front is spaced at 95mm, while the rear had clearly been stretched to 126. I have set it back to 120, but suspect the original may have been 110mm. Any thoughts on that? I am thinking to take it to Peter Bundy to ensure it is set straight.

Roger

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spirito
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Re: Tollis frames x 2

Postby spirito » Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:39 am

rogerrabbit wrote:

Some pics of suitable derailleurs would be appreciated. It is a lightweight frame, so I would like to fit it with suitable lightweight racing components of the day. A front shifter with the lever of the derailleur would be nice. Are they the correct period? Otherwise I guess it will be a 4 speed bike.



4 or 5 speed would be fine and correct for the mid to late 50's.

There's a few ways you can opt for this ...

The first is a weird one which I don't know much about but it involves a Sturmey hub gear with the addition of a rear derailler or mech. as the English would call it.

http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/hybrid-hd.html
http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/co ... dacon.html

Many other paths to follow. Steep learning curve, some items are not easily sourced and it's going to take a little help making sense of it all. By the braze on shifter boss, derailleur cable guides and cyclo/simplex style hanger it's quite probable that it ran a specific gear system. It's not easy to ascertain exactly the which rear derailleur and shifters will fit without having a few on hand or at least having the right spec. measurements etc ... but not impossible. My hunch is Cyclo-Benelux but Simplex or Huret might also be possible and all had variants of front derailleurs that were rod operated. The Simplex Competition suicide shifter I posted above was introduced in 1950 with a few similar variants in the years following.

You're gonna be murmuring Allvit, Mk 7 and Juy in you sleep. :mrgreen: Below are a bunch of links with variants from all the different marks. Sadly there's not one complete definitive list that I'm aware of. I'm by no means an an expert and I'm sure some here will be able to chime in with better info.

Cyclo-Benelux
http://www.classicrendezvous.com/Britis ... enelux.htm
http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/cyclobenelux.html
http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/cyclo.html
http://homepage3.nifty.com/ClassicBicyc ... cyclo.html

Huret
http://www.classicrendezvous.com/France/Huret_main.htm
http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/huret.html
http://homepage3.nifty.com/ClassicBicyc ... huret.html

Simplex
http://www.classicrendezvous.com/France ... x_main.htm
http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/simplex.html
http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/co ... -comp.html
http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/co ... -comp.html *****
http://homepage3.nifty.com/ClassicBicyc ... mplex.html

and general info on parts from this era ..

http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/components.html
http://www.disraeligears.co.uk/Site/Der ... 1950s.html
http://homepage3.nifty.com/ClassicBicyc ... rands.html

+ an old thread from here that may be of use
viewtopic.php?t=5131&highlight=#p71169

***** Denotes the closest set up to your frame I've seen
Cranky Jim wrote: God did not invent gears. Men invented gears ... because we are not gods.

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WyvernRH
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Re: Tollis frames x 2

Postby WyvernRH » Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:43 am

rogerrabbit wrote:Hi, thanks for the great info Richard, and to all the other dolls that contributed!

I have had a closer look at the dropout. It looks like the derailleur hanger has been hand brazed onto the dropout. No Simplex markings to be seen anywhere. The hanger is threaded, but a campag derailleur only threads in a few turns before it binds.

The shifter boss has a slightly bigger than campag square section, while it takes a screw that is much smaller than a campag one. No more pics tonight, but I may be able to get some more taken tomorrow.

Some pics of suitable derailleurs would be appreciated. It is a lightweight frame, so I would like to fit it with suitable lightweight racing components of the day. A front shifter with the lever of the derailleur would be nice. Are they the correct period? Otherwise I guess it will be a 4 speed bike.

The front is spaced at 95mm, while the rear had clearly been stretched to 126. I have set it back to 120, but suspect the original may have been 110mm. Any thoughts on that? I am thinking to take it to Peter Bundy to ensure it is set straight.

Roger


Hmm, if the hangers threaded it isn't Simplex and if it's not standard Campag (8mm from memory?) almost certainly meant to take a Cyclo/Benelux gear, probably a Mk7? Going back out to the shed and doing a little dissembling of my 1960 Elswick Lincoln Imp, which had a Mk7 gear as standard. Now this had one of the weird Benelux specific threads in the hanger and a gear boss very similar to the one shown on your Tollis. It uses one of the long Alloy Cyclo levers with and old 'resilion' butterfly I had in the spares box holding it on - very odd size! Maybe a dating aid?
The Sport and the Standard gears which preceded the Mk7 did not AFAIK use a thread and had just a plain punched hole.
The Disraeli gears site and the classic lightweights UK site Spirito mentions have lots of good info on Benelux gears, including in the later case servicing and parts manuals!
This discussion thread might help also
http://bicycles.net.au/forums/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5172&p=71740&hilit=+benelux#p71740

Hey Spirito, you had to recommend the most wildly expensive ever Simplex gear possible as the best fit! Are you trying to bankrupt him? :P

Cheers
Richard

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spirito
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Re: Tollis frames x 2

Postby spirito » Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:59 am

WyvernRH wrote:

Hey Spirito, you had to recommend the most wildly expensive ever Simplex gear possible as the best fit! Are you trying to bankrupt him? :P



I knew you'd pick up on that :mrgreen:

To be fair Roger did ask ....
rogerrabbit wrote:
Some pics of suitable derailleurs would be appreciated. It is a lightweight frame, so I would like to fit it with suitable lightweight racing components of the day.


The bike has a setup similar to Roger's and back then it wasn't wildly expensive. I also Trust Roger is canny enough to find a bargain and if he at least knows what to look for then that puts him in good stead whilst he is sourcing what he needs to complete the bike.
Cranky Jim wrote: God did not invent gears. Men invented gears ... because we are not gods.

rogerrabbit
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Re: Tollis frames x 2

Postby rogerrabbit » Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:43 pm

Thanks very much for the help guys.

I think I need to sort out what the rear thread in the dropout is first, and that will dictate to a large degree what my options are.

I LOVE that Simplex JUY 543 set, absolutely beautiful, but it sounds like the threaded dropout excludes the option for Simplex.

Richard, is the Cyclo thread the same size (but a different pitch) to Campagnolo? I ask this as a Campagnolo derailleur screws in a couple of turns before binding. Also, is the Mk7 the same as a Model 60?

Cheers
Roger

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Clydesdale Scot
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Re: Tollis frames x 2

Postby Clydesdale Scot » Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:19 am

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hadla ... /index.htm is another reference for Simplex.
And Velobase at http://velobase.com/SearchVisual_List.a ... tegory=108

If anyone has something suitable for a 1948 Spearman lightweight road bike I am interested. 3 Speed Simplex.

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Re: Tollis frames x 2

Postby spirito » Thu Oct 15, 2009 11:28 am

Clydesdale Scot wrote:http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hadland/derailleur/index.htm


Wow .. cool link. Thanks for posting.

A nice condition Simplex front derailleur went for reasonable money recently ...
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll ... 0467767525

And Rog ... I'm not sure whether the threaded dropout tab precludes you from using Simplex. I'd check first.

Lastly, I gotz a Simplex freewheel. Made in Italy no less. It looks in excellent condition and I'd love to make it complete. It's missing what I assume to be the last threaded cog (inside .. to make a 4 speed). If anybody knows of spares or options lemme know and I'll measure it up to see what threads it accepts.

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WyvernRH
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Re: Tollis frames x 2

Postby WyvernRH » Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:20 pm

rogerrabbit wrote:Thanks very much for the help guys.

I think I need to sort out what the rear thread in the dropout is first, and that will dictate to a large degree what my options are.

I LOVE that Simplex JUY 543 set, absolutely beautiful, but it sounds like the threaded dropout excludes the option for Simplex.

Richard, is the Cyclo thread the same size (but a different pitch) to Campagnolo? I ask this as a Campagnolo derailleur screws in a couple of turns before binding. Also, is the Mk7 the same as a Model 60?

Cheers
Roger


Roger,
I have sorted through the gears and spare attachment bolts I have for a Mk7/8 and there are 3 different threads. One matches the 'standard' thread, one is dam close and the other is much finer. As the Mk7 was used into the 60's on lower end stuff I would suggest the standard thread is the most modern, the 'close' bolt fitted my 1960 Lincoln Imp and the other fits a couple of the hangers I possess, probably the oldest?
As far as I know all the Model 60 varients and the P2 used the standard thread. It is not great thing to re-cut the thread to standard or ignore it and fit a Simplex gear BUT due to the shape of the dropout face (a complete circle, no cut outs) only certain types of gear will fit without cutting a notch into the hanger, i.e. any Benelux and most Simplex (and few weird and rare oddities).
As I personally think the Mk7 is an abortion of a gear, what I have done with my Lincoln Imp is to re-cut the thread to standard and make a spacer plate that has the required notch for a Huret Allvit that fits between the gear and the hanger. This works well as my Imp is a ten speed version and the Allvit spans the 14-28 range well on both chainrings.
Also, you don't have to use a slapper front gear if you want double chainrings you know. What you need is one on these!

Image

A ten speed conversion clamp! It fits over the existing r/h boss and gives you the l/h boss for the front changer lever. Tricky eh? :wink:
This is a Huret but I have a Simplex somewhere. Very popular with the cost-concious cyclist who had a good frame and wanted a quick upgrade to 10 speeds.
FYI the Huret bosses seem to have there own thread, as do the British ones but the Simplex seem to be a metric size, smaller than the modern standard.
If you go to http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/cyclobenelux.html you will se some Benelux lever bolts, my Imp uses the one on the far right. I have a few of these knocking around if you want to borrow one to check your boss thread. I also have some spares of the boss conversion clamp if you are interested, Huret only I'm afraid but remember people were not so 'gruppo' fixated in those days.
Cheers
Richard

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Re: Tollis frames x 2

Postby rogerrabbit » Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:56 pm

Hi Richard,

Thanks for the detailed info.

I was having a closer look at the thread in the dropout today, and it is a very fine thread compared to the current standard.

I do intend to fit a derailleur that works with the current dropout without modification, so I guess I am looking for an early Belelux derailluer. Do you have any idea on a specific model that would have the fine thread?

I also intend to fit a lever operated (non cable) front derailleur, partly because they look cool, but also because I expect that was what was originally fitted. I am hoping to obtain a pair of Campag Gran Sport LF QR hubs for it. They will be laced to the correct early Fiamme tubular rims.

I am really looking forward to getting this bike together and having a ride. I think it will be many months yet though. I am almost finished with the cut and polish. The frame looks great now, but there are many bits of exposed metal under the wax where the worm and rust spots were. Still, it adds character! It is hard to imagine it was the same frame though. When I have finished the polish, I will post up some more pics. Getting the 40 year old masking tape off took an hour or more of hard labour, soapy water and then methelated spirits, and lots of elbow grease.

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Re: Tollis frames x 2 - First one finished

Postby rogerrabbit » Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:37 pm

Here are some pics of the mid 60'sTollis. Now up and running but in need of a couple of tweaks still. With the rear wheel pulled forward the rear clearance is pretty tight. I have fitted a wide range freewheel to make it useable with the 45t front chainring. It rides very nicely, but it has just been up the street and back so far. The rear brake alloy mounting nut has a stripped thread, and possibly the bolt is a bit stuffed too, so I need to get that sorted before any longer rides.
The original paint cleaned up OK with a light sanding with 1500 grit paper and a good wax after that.

Image
Image
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More pics are at http://www.flickr.com/photos/rogerrabbit1964/sets/72157606069400901/

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spirito
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Re: Tollis frames x 2 - First one finished

Postby spirito » Sun Mar 07, 2010 1:44 pm

rogerrabbit wrote:
Image
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Very nice Roger :D 8)

You've done a great job cleaning that up. Looks great with the Gb's and early Campag (gotta get me one of them clamp on cable stops for the early front der's). A lot of nice deatils all over. Shame there aren't any fatter tubulars readily available in Oz :(

The Johnny Cash theme looks good :wink:
Cranky Jim wrote: God did not invent gears. Men invented gears ... because we are not gods.

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Re: Tollis frames x 2

Postby kevinwulf » Sun Mar 07, 2010 2:18 pm

spirito wrote:
Image


I knew someone would find a use for Lime Spiders' records one day. :P

Swap you 25th Hour 2x7", Out of Control 7" & Slave Girl 7" for some of your spare Cyclo bits. :D

Fantastic Tollises (Tolli?) by the way!!

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spirito
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Re: Tollis frames x 2

Postby spirito » Sun Mar 07, 2010 7:53 pm

kevinwulf wrote:
spirito wrote:
Image


I knew someone would find a use for Lime Spiders' records one day. :P

Swap you 25th Hour 2x7", Out of Control 7" & Slave Girl 7" for some of your spare Cyclo bits. :D


Ha !!! :lol:

I have to commend you, great eye. However, my Cyclo bits ain't going anywhere soon, sorry :P

I've had to pause buying vinyl for the mean time, turntable hasn't been hooked up in a whiles :oops:
Cranky Jim wrote: God did not invent gears. Men invented gears ... because we are not gods.

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Re: Tollis frames x 2

Postby Overclocked » Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:58 pm

You have no idea how great it is to see some Tollis cycles restored, I am Russell Tollis's grandson, I spent alot of time in the mascot shop as a young child and lived with Russell from the time I was 18 months old.

I have the very last Tollis cycle ever made by Russell, Russell retired in 1978 but he built me a road bike for my 13th birthday in 1983 with parts he had kept , of course is is still a great bike

I literally have tears in my eyes seeing your photo's, thanks so much for posting

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Re: Tollis frames x 2

Postby cludence » Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:20 pm

Wow, welcome to the forum!

Glad to hear you still have the bike. Quite a lot of tollis's are still around.
Jim Bundy speaks highly of your grandfather. I believe that Jim worked for him for a period of time.
Not sure where you are based but if in Sydney you should stop in and say hi to Jim. He would love to see you.

Karen.

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Re: Tollis frames x 2

Postby rogerrabbit » Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:31 pm

Hi, and welcome from me too! You would be more than welcome to come and have a look at my Tollis(s), and if you are tall enough, take them for a ride.

The one that is completed is a really (really!)amazing bike to ride. It is the favourite of all my bikes as far as balance and lightness of handling. The older one is more challenging for me to get running as getting the gears sorted is proving challenging, but I will get there eventually, with a bit of focus.

Best regards
Roger

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spirito
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Re: Tollis frames x 2

Postby spirito » Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:28 am

oopps
Last edited by spirito on Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cranky Jim wrote: God did not invent gears. Men invented gears ... because we are not gods.

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