Old "IDEAL" Racer -See Photos

[Retro Rorz]

G'Day, I have a very old bike that I want to restore to its original glory and would very much appreciate any information on its history etc, which will assist me in the restoration process. It's a single speed racer - 28" wheels (quite low profile rims), rear seat stays bolted on top and bottom and the only identifying mark on the frame is "IDEAL" stamped into the bottom of the frame's crank housing. Rear wheel has an "Eadie" single speed coaster hub. Handle Bars are racing drops - quite narrow in width, with very deep drop.
Hard to see the colour of the bike frame, but near as I can tell the frame colour was perhaps Black with Maroon, while the Mud Guards are green with what looks to be gold/yellow pin striping.
Also there is an ornate design centre pull front brake caliper but I reckon its not part of the original bike as the wheel rims are too low profile for the brake blocks to contact.
I sincerely hope that I can find out about this beautiful old machine and do it justice in the restoration.
I can also email photo's for anyone interested to help.
Thanks
R - R

[casual_cyclist]

PM a mod and ask nicely if they will post pictures for you. They are usually pretty obliging.

[Torana68]

..can you include a good photo of the markings on the BB, this sounds like a bike that was on ebay for ages. It also sounds like a roadster..
Roger

[mikesbytes]

Here's the photos

[hartleymartin]

Here's the photos

Hate to burst your bubble, but it looks to be more of a roadster than a racer, although it could be a racer which someone has just slapped on mudguards and a carry rack. The deep-drop handlebars is what makes me wonder. Perhaps measure the diameter of the seat-post and it'll reveal to us what type of steel the frame is made of.

[Retro Rorz]

Yeah, thanks for your thoughts. The seat post measures 26.8mm dia according to my verniers (surface rust included) which equates to just under 1& 1/16inch.
Not sure about the mudguards either, they don't appear to fit that well, as though they may have been an after thought.
The old centre pull front brake I'm fairly certain was an add on too, due to the clamp on fittings and also the brake blocks have very little area to contact such low profile rim wall etc.
The carry rack has universal fitting clamp too - clamps around top of seat stay tubes by wing nut adjustable clamp. remains of a brand decal says - 'PRIMATOR' Qualitat. French or Italian perhaps???
Anyway, Racer or Roadster, shes a beauty and deserves a top shelf rebuild!
Keen to hear everyones thoughts - Thanks
R-R

[Torana68]

this may predate the bolt on stays rule (which should be applied flexibly to early bikes) its a better class of frame but I still cant see an "E" on the BB I can see its not well struck but its more like a "D" or "R" and the "Ideal" company is a US company and didnt make bikes like this at the time this was made, I am in no doubt there was an Australian "Ideal" as there were so many makers there would have to be one with an obvious name like that . It certainly looks roadster ish in its frame. The seat tube measure is also not really appropriate to this frame .
Roger

[Retro Rorz]

Thanks for your thoughts, - definitely IDEAL stamped into BB. Have also researched Ideal bikes and also came up with the American bicycle Co of IDEAL but browsing their records didn't get me any solid info.
Perhaps it was a local (Australian) frame builder using IDEAL as his brand?!?
Rory.

[hartleymartin]

I should have spotted it earlier - it's running "Westwood" rims. The brake on the front is a "Phillips" brake (sometimes refered to as a "Philco"). These features make me think even more that it is a roadster of some sort. 26.8mm seatpost MIGHT just in fact be 26.4mm. Rather odd, but I've got a 50's roadster frame in my garage which is extremely similar.

[Torana68]

............., but I've got a 50's roadster frame in my garage which is extremely similar.

? this would have been considered an old bike in the 50's

[hartleymartin]

............., but I've got a 50's roadster frame in my garage which is extremely similar.

? this would have been considered an old bike in the 50's

What's got me curious is that my old roadster has head-tube lugs almost identical. However, this frame is better quality. The fork ends on my frame are just the tube squashed and fillet brazed with brass. These ones look like separate castings (forged parts?)

[Retro Rorz]

All great info! Keep it coming!

[cludence]

............., but I've got a 50's roadster frame in my garage which is extremely similar.

? this would have been considered an old bike in the 50's

What's got me curious is that my old roadster has head-tube lugs almost identical. However, this frame is better quality. The fork ends on my frame are just the tube squashed and fillet brazed with brass. These ones look like separate castings (forged parts?)

Many different bicycle brands used the same lugs. It is sometime an indication of maker but not always.

Does the bike have any numbers near the seat post tube? If not, the forks may have numbers on the steerer.
The lugs look BSA style to me. Very early, same as the fork crown. There was a bike sold on ebay within the last week that had the same lugs. It was a speedwell from memory. SVB was selling it. -I dont have the link, sorry!

Definately a pre 40's bike.

[bicyclepassion]

The lug set is BSA 'roadster' pattern, or one of the copies of the BSA sets. The racing lugset had a narrower crown and bottom bracket shell, and the chainstays were of a different configuration than this bike. The racing bikes ran a narrower chain line.
Check the head fitting threads. If they are 30 TPI, it is most likely pre 1930, if it is 24TPI, it will most likely be post 1930.
The handlebars are downturned roadster bars, this shape designed to be used in the turned up position. They are the wrong shape for racing, track or road.
I have a feeling, but not sure, that the 'IDEAL' is the brand of the bottom bracket shell, not the brand of the bike.
There was no law against racing on a roadster frame, and I'm sure that it was done, but if I had to say what this bike was I would say a 1920-something gents roadster, of the better quality variety, made in Australia by a local or small builder.
Check the steering tube for the 3 rifles BSA emblem, and sometimes this is still visible stamped faintly into the lugs themselves.
The seat post diameter wont help at all with dating or identifying this frame, although many of the pre 1930 racing frames used a 1" outside diameter seat bar, with an approx 7/8" diameter (22-23mm) seat post.
Hope this helps,
Warren

[Johnj]

The lug set is BSA 'roadster' pattern, or one of the copies of the BSA sets. The racing lugset had a narrower crown and bottom bracket shell, and the chainstays were of a different configuration than this bike. The racing bikes ran a narrower chain line.
Check the head fitting threads. If they are 30 TPI, it is most likely pre 1930, if it is 24TPI, it will most likely be post 1930.
The handlebars are downturned roadster bars, this shape designed to be used in the turned up position. They are the wrong shape for racing, track or road.
I have a feeling, but not sure, that the 'IDEAL' is the brand of the bottom bracket shell, not the brand of the bike.
There was no law against racing on a roadster frame, and I'm sure that it was done, but if I had to say what this bike was I would say a 1920-something gents roadster, of the better quality variety, made in Australia by a local or small builder.
Check the steering tube for the 3 rifles BSA emblem, and sometimes this is still visible stamped faintly into the lugs themselves.
The seat post diameter wont help at all with dating or identifying this frame, although many of the pre 1930 racing frames used a 1" outside diameter seat bar, with an approx 7/8" diameter (22-23mm) seat post.
Hope this helps,
Warren

Thanks Warren, so much good info here I don't know where to start. I've got what I think is a late 1930s Tasmanian racer. It has 30TPI on the fork thread (as near as I can measure it) and a clamp headset fitting. Those both suggest 1920s or early 1930s, but the lugs (elaborately shaped edges etc) and some other features on the bike tie it more to the late 1930s. Maybe Tasmanian bikes were a bit old-fashioned?

Could you let us know the width of a racing BB shell compared to a roadster bb shell? I've got a couple of bikes here I'd like to measure.

[bicyclepassion]

The 'racing' bottom bracket shells were two and a half inches, or approx 63mm.
The 30tpi dating is approximate, obviously many small builders would have had plenty of steering tubes and headfittings sitting around for a long time after the 24 tpi came into common use with the factory built bikes (Malvern Star, Healing etc).
Most of the clip head specific steering tubes with the short thread were 30 TPI, and these seem to crop up on bikes right into the 1940's. The 30 tpi thread is 31/32", not 1", one set of head fittings wont even go close to threading onto the other, so you dont really have to count the threads to work out what is what. Just have one of each type hanging around and check the steerer on a 'go' or 'wont go' basis.
There are exceptions to all these things, and you will find 'clip head' bikes with 1" steerers, and early bikes with 24 TPI, (forks replaced? Steering tube replaced sometime?) just to confuse the issue.
Warren

[hartleymartin]

Great! Now that's ISO 24tpi, Raleigh 26tpi and 30tpi threading that I've got to worry about!