Idiots guide to salvaged 80s roadies
Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 12:15 am
I'm probably the least qualified guy to start this topic, but I have spent a fair while with great, good and awful bikes of the eighties and onward, so I thought perhaps I'd make a little contribution that details what I look for when I'm peering through junk. For random travellers through here, this is a guide to Australian junk by and large.
If you're looking at a frame, or a pile of frames, and something catches your eye, you can generally know without even picking up the bike what it's like and whether it's worth rescuing. My junk peering generally starts by ELIMINATION, I know what I don't want (with some qualifications).
On something that looks eighties, the DO NOT WANT list:
- cottered cranks, or alloy cranks with riveted rings - you need to see allen bolts holding the chainrings on. You can't salvage riveted chainsets usefully.
- Pressed steel chainrings on the above cranks - once they are worn, the entire crank is junk. Not useful.
- stem shifters generally indicate a junker / fixie candidate.
- Axle mount derailleurs - the type that go into the dropout. Minimum quality frames of the eighties had a proper derailleur mount.
- dropouts - must be forged. The stamped/pressed ones are thinner and obvious once you know what you're looking at. Those frames are generally heavy, fixie candidates but willl never make decent road bikes.
Make exceptions for earlier frames - if it's fifties or something, decent mens and womens roadsters still had cottered cranks and some had pressed dropouts but they are a different league to the general tip shop / hard rubbish find. If it has a sturmey-archer hub for example, just grab it and go and worry about it later.
- rusty headsets == steel. Useable frames, but generally better frames have alloy headsets, they get white corrosion but not brown rust. Lots of half decent bikes still have steel headsets, but an alloy headset is a pretty sure sign the bike is a keeper.
What you do want
- know your brands. Read the retro biking section from start to back, sounds like a big job but the names will lodge in your head. Ricardo, Centurion, Repco, Europa, Apollo. They slapped some stickers on some real junk, but also on some surprisingly sublime kit. Road King, Road Master == Big W, K Mart bikes. Just toss 'em aside. I loved my Road King when I was a kid but frankly it was a dunger. Not even worth a fixie conversion and not a good source of parts.
- Memorise the key words:
TRI-A, SUPERLITE, ELITE, OLYMPIC, EUROPA, INDI. In the back of your mind, if its a Raleigh it's worth looking at. Don't get excited by Colnago stickers, ever.
- bike shop stickers generally indicate something good - a lot of bike shops put their sticker on the seat tube to indicate where it came from. "bike shop bikes" can be a bit hit and miss but they are always worth a look.
- steel rims are awful. Steel hubs are worse. Not worth saving and mostly not even worth digging the bearings out of.
- alloy rims made by Ukai and Araya are fine. Araya are my preference but they made rims from the sublime to the ridiculous. You'll find a massive range of hubs laced up to Araya rims (from suntour to suzue == grab it and run, excellent hubs. Joytech, unbranded, whatever, are fine also). Don't be afraid of the 27" wheel - they are great.
- anything italian or french grab it and go (Miche can be found in junk piles occasionally - was used a lot on repaired bikes as an "upgrade" on cheap bikes and a downgrade on expensive bikes being repaired on the cheap). Somebody is always looking for spare axles, bearing cups etc. even on heavily damaged european stuff. The Suzue hubs and better japanese stuff are pretty much interchangeable with these for axles and bearings/cups too.
- if the frame still has a sticker on it indicating the tube type, you're in luck. Know the difference between 1020 and the better stuff though by reading the forums. I dismissed a Tange 5 frame simply because it wasn't double butted and it turned out to be one of my favourites. Tange branded frames are generally somewhere between pretty good and sublime. Giant made a lot of bikes for a lot of brands and they're pretty much all worth keeping (look for the Giant sticker).
- hi ten < CRMO Cro-mo < cro-mo double butted. Anything double butted is probably worth keeping. Anything marked "seamless" is probably worth keeping. Hi-ten, undamaged, good for a fixie conversion.
Bars, stems, seatposts:
- Sakae Ringyo made fine bars. You'll find them extremely common in Australia. Italian stuff sometimes. Prefer alloy over steel and make sure they aren't bent when you get home before you use them. They say "Road Champion" on 'em and are usually a little narrow for modern tastes but you get used to them.
- Nitto turn up occasionally. Grab 'em.
- Ricardo and Centurion are sometimes found with "home brand" bars - generally these are SR and the same applies.
- SR stems are as good as anything, but any alloy stem with a recessed allen bolt is worth keeping (but the frame, not necessarily). Grab frame for parts.
- steel stem and exposed hex bolt = junk frame, run away.
- anything with a micro-adjust seatpost == worth investigating and generally grab it for the seatpost. Older style seatposts in alloy are OK, but the micro-adjust ones made by SR are ugly but useful. A damaged frame with a good post is worth buying for the post, you never know what it might fit or you'll come across a good frame missing a seat post later.
Brakes:
- search the web - Dia-Compe licensed Weinmann brakes in return for cross licensing the suicide lever. Branded dia-compe brakes are just as good as Weinmann brakes and far more common. However, anything fitted with suicide levers is generally a piece of junk. Weird that weinmann sold out for that.
- Shimano brakes seem less common in my neck of the woods, even bikes specced with Exage Sport were finished with dia-compe brakes. Shimano branded brakes are good and indicate a better frame.
- pressed steel brakes = junker.
- unbranded brakes usually mean junker. Look for a brand.
- centre pull brakes == run away unless they say MAFAC in which case feign total indifference but buy the bike.
Shifters / gear stuff:
- as I said, stem shifters were fitted to (ahem) "sports bikes". Junk, in other words. Still may be the occasional bit on the frame worth saving (seatpost pin etc).
- downtube shifters on a frame == investigate further.
- Suntour = grab it and run. Even the worst suntour derailleur or shifter is worth something and the freewheels are divine.
- Shimano tourney = junk.
- fancy looking Shimano might be "arabesque". People like it, it works well, grab the whole bike or what's left of it.
- Shimano "bio-pace" is retro cool.
- anything 105 is worth grabbing. Hard to find dura-ace on a junk pile but you never know.
- anything marked "light action" is entry level stuff but still useable and the frame may well be a good'un.
- you do occasionally see Campagnolo, Miche,Gipiemme,Stronglight. Grab it and run. Even if it's buggered somebody will want it for spares. For some reason, the better Shimano stuff of equivalent quality isn't as collectable right now but give it time. Suntour = dead company with huge reputation and it's easy to see why when you hold it. Euro stuff == snob value.
Damage
- Lots of frames will be missing their wheels, but look to see if the top tube is straight (uncrinkled paint, no flaking paint, no dents) and that the headset is free. Notchy might just be worn out or if the forks don't sit out properly might indicate a big prang. If you can, trial fit a wheel in the fork so you can see whether the fork is bent. You can fix them if you have access to a press but it generally isn't worth it.
- Most old abandoned roadies end up with the brake levers turned inwards through impacts. Make sure the bars are straight if you want to use them.
- check the seat stays are still attached.
- Anything somebody else touched with a welder is junk - look for scorch marks and if you buy the frame, it's for parts or making a tandem.
- rust is a mixed blessing. A lot of really, really expensive 531db frames rust like there's not tomorrow, while a hi-tensile dung heap from k-mart will probably outlive this society and the next one yet always be awful to ride. Dig the rust with your fingernail - anything beyond surface rust == walk away.
Miscellaneous:
- Kashimax made a millimetre perfect copy of the classic Selle Turbo saddle, but in vinyl with stainless rails. Worth keeping and recovering. Other saddles assess as you come across them. Brand is found underneath the saddle. However, right now you can buy a brand new leather covered Selle San Marco Rolls for $90 delivered (2010) why would you bother.
- be a regular at your tip shop, make sure you find out the names of people associated with the bikes. People love it when you remember their name.
- make a pile of your junk. If you grab just a frame/fork/bar set, make sure you pillage at least a couple of wheels as they generally throw them in for free. It's impossible to have enough Araya rims even if the spokes are rusted and the hub is junk.
- keep your eye out at Lifeline and other places like that. Our local Lifeline is not good for bikes (they overcharge then end up taking the bikes to the tip shop).
- hard rubbish days in big cities.
- Ebay is not a good place to buy a frame IMHO. Too much junk, too much money, can't hold it in your hands and check for crash damage.
- never pass up a chance to look at somebodies "old bike", they might dismiss it as junk but it could be a stellar find.
- buy new cables before you ride == cheap insurance. If you can't change a brake cable you've got no business trying to rescue an old bike.
If you're looking at a frame, or a pile of frames, and something catches your eye, you can generally know without even picking up the bike what it's like and whether it's worth rescuing. My junk peering generally starts by ELIMINATION, I know what I don't want (with some qualifications).
On something that looks eighties, the DO NOT WANT list:
- cottered cranks, or alloy cranks with riveted rings - you need to see allen bolts holding the chainrings on. You can't salvage riveted chainsets usefully.
- Pressed steel chainrings on the above cranks - once they are worn, the entire crank is junk. Not useful.
- stem shifters generally indicate a junker / fixie candidate.
- Axle mount derailleurs - the type that go into the dropout. Minimum quality frames of the eighties had a proper derailleur mount.
- dropouts - must be forged. The stamped/pressed ones are thinner and obvious once you know what you're looking at. Those frames are generally heavy, fixie candidates but willl never make decent road bikes.
Make exceptions for earlier frames - if it's fifties or something, decent mens and womens roadsters still had cottered cranks and some had pressed dropouts but they are a different league to the general tip shop / hard rubbish find. If it has a sturmey-archer hub for example, just grab it and go and worry about it later.
- rusty headsets == steel. Useable frames, but generally better frames have alloy headsets, they get white corrosion but not brown rust. Lots of half decent bikes still have steel headsets, but an alloy headset is a pretty sure sign the bike is a keeper.
What you do want
- know your brands. Read the retro biking section from start to back, sounds like a big job but the names will lodge in your head. Ricardo, Centurion, Repco, Europa, Apollo. They slapped some stickers on some real junk, but also on some surprisingly sublime kit. Road King, Road Master == Big W, K Mart bikes. Just toss 'em aside. I loved my Road King when I was a kid but frankly it was a dunger. Not even worth a fixie conversion and not a good source of parts.
- Memorise the key words:
TRI-A, SUPERLITE, ELITE, OLYMPIC, EUROPA, INDI. In the back of your mind, if its a Raleigh it's worth looking at. Don't get excited by Colnago stickers, ever.
- bike shop stickers generally indicate something good - a lot of bike shops put their sticker on the seat tube to indicate where it came from. "bike shop bikes" can be a bit hit and miss but they are always worth a look.
- steel rims are awful. Steel hubs are worse. Not worth saving and mostly not even worth digging the bearings out of.
- alloy rims made by Ukai and Araya are fine. Araya are my preference but they made rims from the sublime to the ridiculous. You'll find a massive range of hubs laced up to Araya rims (from suntour to suzue == grab it and run, excellent hubs. Joytech, unbranded, whatever, are fine also). Don't be afraid of the 27" wheel - they are great.
- anything italian or french grab it and go (Miche can be found in junk piles occasionally - was used a lot on repaired bikes as an "upgrade" on cheap bikes and a downgrade on expensive bikes being repaired on the cheap). Somebody is always looking for spare axles, bearing cups etc. even on heavily damaged european stuff. The Suzue hubs and better japanese stuff are pretty much interchangeable with these for axles and bearings/cups too.
- if the frame still has a sticker on it indicating the tube type, you're in luck. Know the difference between 1020 and the better stuff though by reading the forums. I dismissed a Tange 5 frame simply because it wasn't double butted and it turned out to be one of my favourites. Tange branded frames are generally somewhere between pretty good and sublime. Giant made a lot of bikes for a lot of brands and they're pretty much all worth keeping (look for the Giant sticker).
- hi ten < CRMO Cro-mo < cro-mo double butted. Anything double butted is probably worth keeping. Anything marked "seamless" is probably worth keeping. Hi-ten, undamaged, good for a fixie conversion.
Bars, stems, seatposts:
- Sakae Ringyo made fine bars. You'll find them extremely common in Australia. Italian stuff sometimes. Prefer alloy over steel and make sure they aren't bent when you get home before you use them. They say "Road Champion" on 'em and are usually a little narrow for modern tastes but you get used to them.
- Nitto turn up occasionally. Grab 'em.
- Ricardo and Centurion are sometimes found with "home brand" bars - generally these are SR and the same applies.
- SR stems are as good as anything, but any alloy stem with a recessed allen bolt is worth keeping (but the frame, not necessarily). Grab frame for parts.
- steel stem and exposed hex bolt = junk frame, run away.
- anything with a micro-adjust seatpost == worth investigating and generally grab it for the seatpost. Older style seatposts in alloy are OK, but the micro-adjust ones made by SR are ugly but useful. A damaged frame with a good post is worth buying for the post, you never know what it might fit or you'll come across a good frame missing a seat post later.
Brakes:
- search the web - Dia-Compe licensed Weinmann brakes in return for cross licensing the suicide lever. Branded dia-compe brakes are just as good as Weinmann brakes and far more common. However, anything fitted with suicide levers is generally a piece of junk. Weird that weinmann sold out for that.
- Shimano brakes seem less common in my neck of the woods, even bikes specced with Exage Sport were finished with dia-compe brakes. Shimano branded brakes are good and indicate a better frame.
- pressed steel brakes = junker.
- unbranded brakes usually mean junker. Look for a brand.
- centre pull brakes == run away unless they say MAFAC in which case feign total indifference but buy the bike.
Shifters / gear stuff:
- as I said, stem shifters were fitted to (ahem) "sports bikes". Junk, in other words. Still may be the occasional bit on the frame worth saving (seatpost pin etc).
- downtube shifters on a frame == investigate further.
- Suntour = grab it and run. Even the worst suntour derailleur or shifter is worth something and the freewheels are divine.
- Shimano tourney = junk.
- fancy looking Shimano might be "arabesque". People like it, it works well, grab the whole bike or what's left of it.
- Shimano "bio-pace" is retro cool.
- anything 105 is worth grabbing. Hard to find dura-ace on a junk pile but you never know.
- anything marked "light action" is entry level stuff but still useable and the frame may well be a good'un.
- you do occasionally see Campagnolo, Miche,Gipiemme,Stronglight. Grab it and run. Even if it's buggered somebody will want it for spares. For some reason, the better Shimano stuff of equivalent quality isn't as collectable right now but give it time. Suntour = dead company with huge reputation and it's easy to see why when you hold it. Euro stuff == snob value.
Damage
- Lots of frames will be missing their wheels, but look to see if the top tube is straight (uncrinkled paint, no flaking paint, no dents) and that the headset is free. Notchy might just be worn out or if the forks don't sit out properly might indicate a big prang. If you can, trial fit a wheel in the fork so you can see whether the fork is bent. You can fix them if you have access to a press but it generally isn't worth it.
- Most old abandoned roadies end up with the brake levers turned inwards through impacts. Make sure the bars are straight if you want to use them.
- check the seat stays are still attached.
- Anything somebody else touched with a welder is junk - look for scorch marks and if you buy the frame, it's for parts or making a tandem.
- rust is a mixed blessing. A lot of really, really expensive 531db frames rust like there's not tomorrow, while a hi-tensile dung heap from k-mart will probably outlive this society and the next one yet always be awful to ride. Dig the rust with your fingernail - anything beyond surface rust == walk away.
Miscellaneous:
- Kashimax made a millimetre perfect copy of the classic Selle Turbo saddle, but in vinyl with stainless rails. Worth keeping and recovering. Other saddles assess as you come across them. Brand is found underneath the saddle. However, right now you can buy a brand new leather covered Selle San Marco Rolls for $90 delivered (2010) why would you bother.
- be a regular at your tip shop, make sure you find out the names of people associated with the bikes. People love it when you remember their name.
- make a pile of your junk. If you grab just a frame/fork/bar set, make sure you pillage at least a couple of wheels as they generally throw them in for free. It's impossible to have enough Araya rims even if the spokes are rusted and the hub is junk.
- keep your eye out at Lifeline and other places like that. Our local Lifeline is not good for bikes (they overcharge then end up taking the bikes to the tip shop).
- hard rubbish days in big cities.
- Ebay is not a good place to buy a frame IMHO. Too much junk, too much money, can't hold it in your hands and check for crash damage.
- never pass up a chance to look at somebodies "old bike", they might dismiss it as junk but it could be a stellar find.
- buy new cables before you ride == cheap insurance. If you can't change a brake cable you've got no business trying to rescue an old bike.