Identifying a Bianchi? (Actually a Tamari)

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GaryF
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Postby GaryF » Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:25 pm

Kid Carbine,

Is your day job - detective? Well spotted!!! The crank extractor threads may need checking - they could be stretched.

Loved the saddle questions - as long as the bottom line is "Brooks Professional".

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Kid_Carbine
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Postby Kid_Carbine » Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:48 pm

Thanks Gary. That spoke thing seemed to almost poke me in the eye when I saw it. I'm still shaking my head in disbelief that somebody who knew enough to be able to build a wheel, would make a mistake like that.

You thought that the 'Brooks Professional' part was subtle enough? There is an awful lot writen about saddle selection, but once one has settled his 'sit bones' comfortably into a properly broken-in tensioned leather saddle it's amazing how quickly one becomes a convert.
I rather like my Mansfields too, but they don't make them any more, so looks like Brooks is the flagship of the genre.
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LuckyPierre
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Postby LuckyPierre » Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:56 pm

Image
It's already been said: "This is ugly as sin! and has to go!", but before it goes: "Why has a threadless stem been bodged onto a 1 inch fork?".
In fact, that's probably a clue to some irregularity. It's easy enough to clamp a threadless stem over a threaded fork, but it can't have been cut to length for a threaded stem - so, to my mind at least, the fork can't be the original.
Or am I being too 'detective-like'? :?
Or has the stem been fitted with a Richard-like extender? :wink:
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europa
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Postby europa » Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:10 pm

My guess it's an extender. Silly bloody modification but makes more sense than the threadless systems.

Richard
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paulau
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Postby paulau » Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:10 pm

The fork is the original as it is stamped with the same markings as the frame.

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GaryF
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Postby GaryF » Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:50 pm

Mansfield saddles - never tried one; than again, never seen one. I'll have to look for one. I'm about 30kg overweight and I'm finding it hard to sit on a saddle for any length of time. I did use a Brooks Professional the other day and it probably was the best fit so far.

I think Europa is right, the forks are probably fitted with an extender to allow the stem to be fitted. I think the problem might have been that an ITM bar was used and its diameter is slightly smaller than the other bars of a similar vintage (Cinelli, 3TTT, Ambrosio, etc.). Finding an ITM gooseneck is a little difficult so the UNO 7000 may have been a quick fix.

You can source ITM quill stems on ebay but they don't turn up all that often. I've been trying to get a particular one for about a year now.

ggundersen

Postby ggundersen » Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:15 pm

yes the wheel is built wrong - all the spokes should be on the outside

shimano thought the wheel would be more aerodynamic that way

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Kid_Carbine
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Postby Kid_Carbine » Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:24 pm

ggundersen wrote:yes the wheel is built wrong - all the spokes should be on the outside

shimano thought the wheel would be more aerodynamic that way

It's hard to tell, but if you look at the other flange, the fuzzy one closest to the camera, it looks like all the spokes Are on the outside of the flange & that looks horribly wrong too as the spokes actually lay across several others that radiate in the opposite direction.
Bizarre.

I suspect that conventional inside-outside spoking would work OK, but the outside ones simply need to have their heads in the recessed parts.
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Mulger bill
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Postby Mulger bill » Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:26 pm

That stem really is ugly hey?

Notice the butcher concerned even used a 11/8" top cap on a 1" steerer extension :roll:

Sorry Paul, my Sakae quill isn't for sale :wink:

Shaun
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London Boy 29/12/2011

ggundersen

Postby ggundersen » Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:30 pm

conventional inside/outside spoke pattern will not work

it does as you say look like some of the wheel it right and some of it up the creek

the hubs have special cut-outs so all spokes are on the outside

I had dura ace ax on an daccordi frame about 1981
very nice parts - though i didn't like the chainset with the oversize pedal thread

paulau
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Postby paulau » Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:32 pm

So i guess now the big question is what sort of stem should i get, might even get some new bars at the same time.

In regards to the wheels, i'm thinking i'll get some Mavic Open Pro rims, not sure what hubs i'll lace them too though. Atleast with the wheels i can use them on another bike in the long run.

Paul

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Kid_Carbine
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Postby Kid_Carbine » Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:41 am

GaryF wrote:Mansfield saddles - never tried one; than again, never seen one. I'll have to look for one. I'm about 30kg overweight and I'm finding it hard to sit on a saddle for any length of time. I did use a Brooks Professional the other day and it probably was the best fit so far.

If I can hijack for just one post. FD Walcott's [the makers of Carbine] often used components that were sometimes regarded as 'second best' in their bikes. These were components that were not necessarily 'less' than the name brand component, but were often the 'best value' The buyer then reaped the reward of lower cost without necessarily paying a penalty of lower quality. It was just the 'perception' of lower quality in some instances.

Enter the Mansfield saddle. Mansfield seem to have kicked off in the late 20's, so didn't have the near 70 year reputation that Brooks had, nor the distribution, but they made a limited range of quite good saddles, & a wider range of, errrr, low cost ones.
Their flagship was the 'Ormond' range with the Hiduminium chassis. This proved to be a success from about 1930 or so untill the close of business in the mid to late 50's. Brooks tried four times to come up with a non patent infringing alternative. What they got were four total failures.
The Ormond was available in a narrow "Ormond Sprint", the wider road going "Ormond" & the sexy "North Road" [on the Ormond chassis] This was like a Brooks Swallow with the cut away sides, but was better made.
I have an Ormond Sprint & a North Road & am still looking for the middle one, the Ormond.

My model 38N is a conventional design, pretty much the equivalant of the B17N [the Model 38 = B17 Standard] so if you're looking for a Mansfield, see if you can find either a 38N, a Bath Road or an Ormond. These are all good & Mansfield were the only ones who could ever sustain saddle sales at prices higher than equivalant Brooks models, but only with their top end Hiduminium framed models. [Brooks Champion Duralumin of 1933/34 & B16 Castalumin models of 1935/36 were the only true competitors as far as design goes]
For a North Road model, you will need to shop in the UK.

The point here was that while Mansfield were often priced lower than Brooks, & in many models were 'percieved' to be not as good, they did in fact make some good stuff, which made them good value, which is why Carbine cycles often came with them. [unless you requested something else, after all, the paying customer always gets what he wants]

P.S. If you really are 66lb [30kg] overweight, you would probably find a B17 Standard to be a better option if you want a Brooks & for more upright riding, the B72 sounds about right. I want one of these myself.

I now return you to normal programming
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paulau
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Postby paulau » Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:22 am

I'm guessing the second bottle cage was not standard, as one mounting point has little mounts and the other doesnt.

Image

Image

Front spacing is 100mm and rear is 130mm. Bottom bracket is 70mm and crank arm length is 170mm.

Cassette is 7 speed, so i assume its a shimano.

ggundersen

Postby ggundersen » Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:17 am

70 mm BB is standard italian

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europa
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Postby europa » Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:20 am

ggundersen wrote:70 mm BB is standard italian


The terms 'standard' and 'italian' are not usually used in the same sentence unless one uses 'chaos theory' as well :?

Richard
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mikesbytes
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Postby mikesbytes » Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:32 am

I don't think the word "standard" can be use much at all in the cycling world
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Mulger bill
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Postby Mulger bill » Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:08 pm

Good pickup re the cage mounts Paul, makes me think we have the same unit, the Super Corsa. :D

Is it just me or does it look like self tappers holding the seat tube cage on?

The fixed BB cup, on the RHS is a right hand thread, took me ages and quite a bit of help to get it out :oops:

Shaun
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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GaryF
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Postby GaryF » Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:18 pm

Hi Paulau

I think you're right again. I too think the seat tube bottle cage mounting holes are not original. I had a frame with a similar conversion; the holes were drilled and tapped into the tube. Just a shonky job. I screwed a short screw into each hole,cut off the heads and brazed them into the frame. Then I filed them back to the original tube OD. The tube is just as strong as original now and you can't tell the difference.

As for stems - i'd try to get an ITM quill - the Eclipse model looks nice and is easier to find than an alloy stem. The ITM bars are very nice stuff. Your other option is probably a stem / bar combination as you say. Cinelli was/is the market leader and their stem & bars are more easily sourced.

If I can hijack this thread for a minute; Kid Carbine - thankyou for your detailed explaination of the Mansfield saddles. A Mansfield would be a great addition to one of my Aussie bikes. I'll have to take more notice.

By the way, I'm probably 30 lb over my 'fighting weight' (I still weigh myself in Stones). I'm back on the bike now so I hope to get back to my former weight soon.

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LuckyPierre
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Postby LuckyPierre » Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:47 pm

This eBay shophas ITM stems at the moment.
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paulau
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Postby paulau » Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:43 pm

Looking around at wheel sets and the Campagnolo Vento seem like quite a good wheel set, does any one have any experience with them? They look nice and light.

Not sure whether i should go with a Retro wheel set though.

Also can i put a 9 or 10spd cassette on the back?

Strength is not really an issue, as i'm sub 60kg.

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GaryF
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Postby GaryF » Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:47 pm

No experience with the Vento wheels but the 130mm rear spacing would allow 9 or 10 speeds. I would guess the frame started life with a 126mm rear spacing and has been re-spaced to 130mm. You can do this yourself with a little muscle (usually a quick bikeshop job) but the hard part is getting / keeping the rear dropouts parallel to each other. 4mm isn't much so it may not be an issue - then again - it they are not parallel it can flex the quick release skewer when it is tightened and also load-up the bearings on one side due to the axle being flexed also.

I'd measure the width between the dropouts - at either end of the dropout. A vernier calliper is probably best for this job but access to one that opens to 130mm may be an issue. A ruler, if carefully used, may help to see if the rear spacing is parallel. Axle's can snap (from experience) but this is not usually life threatening as the quick release holds everything together allowing you to get home.

My guess - the bike has probably survived for many years as is - it's probably fine.

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uMP2k
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Postby uMP2k » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:13 pm

paulau wrote:Looking around at wheel sets and the Campagnolo Vento seem like quite a good wheel set, does any one have any experience with them? They look nice and light.

Not sure whether i should go with a Retro wheel set though.

Also can i put a 9 or 10spd cassette on the back?

Strength is not really an issue, as i'm sub 60kg.


I have been running 2007 Ventos on my bike for about 3500ks and loving them. Unlike you I am a heavyweight :oops: and strength was a big factor in the choice. Mine cost me about $400 from my lbs, but you can usually get a set online at a pretty good discount. Bellatisport for example has them for about Au$350 with shipping to Oz.

The one thing you should note is that the Ventos only come in a Campag compatible freehub.

In fact I like mine so much I am planning to get another set for the rebuild of my (retro) Repco Tri-A!

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LuckyPierre
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Postby LuckyPierre » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:49 pm

Image
As you can see, I think that Ventos look great! I'm biased and I think that they look better in silver than black (and they come in both).
Enzo has the Ventos, a Record 9-speed groupset, Cinelli stem, bars and seat post and San Marco Regal saddle.
Like uMP2k, mine cost a bit under $400 from my lbs.
They are fine for training and most racing on the road, but flex a bit under pressure on our local crit track. Enzo isn't a lightweight (although he's not that heavy), so I don't really notice their weght. More serious racing would benefit from freer spinning hubs, as the Ventos are pretty much entry-level wheels and that's where it shows.
Litespeed Classic - 3Al/2.5V titanium tube set, Record 9-speed groupset, Open Corsa Evo CX
Alchemy Diablo - Columbus Zonal tubing, Ultegra 9-speed groupset, UltraGatorskins
Gitane Rocks T1 - U6 tubing, Deore/XT groupset, CrossMarks

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5 Star Rolf
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Postby 5 Star Rolf » Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:28 pm

Hey Paulau,
If you're throwing the alloy stem and spacers...could I grab them for scrap metal value...thats approx $300 in alloy there!...
...Otherwise you could sell it on Ebay with the description ' Vintage Retro Classic Bianchi Tamari alloy a-track-tive stem'
-That way you're telling the truth and Rog wont get out his naughty stick! LOL.

Ride safe, cheers, 5*R :twisted: .

paulau
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Postby paulau » Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:31 pm

The Ventos look like they might be a goer, not sure if i would get something better or lighter in the same price range.

I'm looking around for a stem at the moment. I might get a stem to match the ITM bars or may just get a different bars and stem.

Is the reach measured from center to center on the stem?

Paul

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