Just wondering what you all thought....

Vintage, yesteryear and retro biking

Just wondering what you all thought....

Postby winona_rider » Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:09 am

Hey guys...this is my first post in this section of the forum...but I've been stalking you guys for a few months now (lol) and really feeling the urge to begin a project - not a restoration, but just building on an old school frame with new components and new paint.

so i have seen this bike and was wondering what you all thought.

i am 183cm (but ride a 56cm bike at the moment)
When i was fitted for it the bike shop dudes said i was somewhere in the middle between a 56 and 58 and naturally because of my noobness i picked the smaller frame. (not that i am complaining - it seems to fit well)

so yeah - i have some questions...
if i bought it - and i'm still a little unsure of what sort of "project" i wanna take on at this stage - i would like to put a new school campag groupset on it....there shouldn't be any problem with that - right?

can anyone tell what size the rims are?

i've probably got heaps of other questions but i'll leave it at that fr now.

thanking you all in advance
david
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by BNA » Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:34 am

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Postby Mulger bill » Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:34 am

Looks nice David, 27" wheels methinks, which may cause issues with modern brakes if you decide to go 700c :? I don't know Campy well enough to gainsay fitting upgrade bits, but IIRC, there is a few similar project owners about, I'm sure they'll give you more help.

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Postby ggundersen » Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:11 pm

57.5 cm frame is too big for a six foot rider (my opinion)

Certainly would look nice if it was done up, with a new paint job.

Why not try and build it up with only Suntour parts (for ex) - can find them on e-bay.

Sure you could kit it out with modern Campagnolo parts if you want to.
If the frame is only 126mm then widen it to 130 before painting it.
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Postby europa » Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:15 pm

ggundersen wrote:57.5 cm frame is too big for a six foot rider (my opinion)


I'm 6 foot.

Both my Europa and my Jamis are 61cm bb to top tube.

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Postby ggundersen » Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:18 pm

I'm 181 and all my racing frames are 55 c-c
Last edited by ggundersen on Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby stryker84 » Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:18 pm

Agreed. I'm 5'8" - 5'9", and I'd ride about 55cm. 57.5cm is small for a 6' bloke.
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Postby ggundersen » Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:22 pm

well I'm from the italian school and you lot are obviously from the sheldon brown school :?
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Postby europa » Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:23 pm

ggundersen wrote:I'm 181 and all my racing frames are 55 c-c


Sloping top tubes? That'd produce the lower numbers.

This is a traditionally styled frame and so must be considered in that light. Go too low and you start to run into reach problems. Those old bikes were designed to stand tall.

Does anyone else think it looks a bit rough for that price?

What about this comment
This frame is most likey built from Reynolds 531 DB tubing.

especially considering there's nothing to suggest the brand of the bike.

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Postby ggundersen » Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:30 pm

none of my bikes have sloping top tubes
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Postby ggundersen » Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:32 pm

I was more intrigued by the lack of braze ons
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Postby Mulger bill » Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:33 pm

Looks like it's had an honourable life to me, except for the indignity of pink lugs. I'd ask for more pics to be emailed out.

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Postby Kid_Carbine » Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:38 pm

I suspect that it's a 60's era frame, perhaps early 70's, with its Campagnolo fork ends, but these are listed as being on the frame only. This fact & the photo suggests to me that the forks have been replaced at some time in its life & these look pretty good from the limited view that we have of them.

With it's 22-1/2" frame it will probably be just fine for a 6 footer as long as the right stem is used. Lets drop this metric measurement rubbish when it comes to these older frames as they were built to proper Imperial standards & the metric conversions are rarely accurate [ie,22-1/2" actually = 57.15cm & 23" = 58.42cm. The nominated 57.5cm = 22.637795" & nobody used this size unless the frame was custom built to customers own measurements.]

In my view, the only componentry upgrade that should be considered would be Campagnolo Record, Super Record & Neuovo Record items.
My Lennie Rogers is equiped like this & it's almost as good as se* to ride.

This frame, equiped with this Classic, still fairly readily available & reasonably priced high class, & appropriate-to-the-period componentry, will be the envy of just about all your mates & one need NEVER feel second class in ANY company with a class act like this.

So there you go, as long as the frame is suitably sized for you, & as long as it sells for a reasonable price, then you would have a good foundation for a great project. Fit it with the right Campy gear & it's will be a bike you can show to your grandchildren with pride.
Oh yeah, a Brooks B17 Champion Standard, or Narrow or other similar brooks saddle would quite naturally be a given, & if you break it in gently, then you will never regret it.

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Postby GaryF » Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:07 pm

Hi Winona_Rider,

I like the frame but here are my observations:

I think at 57cm c to c seat tube it is a touch small - different if you have shorter legs. I think at 57cm it is ridable though. The only problem will be the limit mark on the seatpost.

I would estimate the frame to be a 60's or early 70's frame with one set of bottle cage bosses and no brazed on gear lever bosses, no brake cable guides and a clamp on front derailleur. That era is great but it is getting harder to find frames.

The front forks are track forks with their round blades. Road forks are ovalised to take the stresses transmitted through rough road surfaces.

The Nervex pro lugs are very desirable and the Normandy hubs were the budget buy hubs yet they were quite common and pretty good. I think the flip flop rear hub is probably a bit older then the bike but it would make a great talking point.

I think you would have to get rid of the modern components and go the Campy route as Kid Carbine suggests.

Buying a bike in the 60's was usually filled with compromises. You'd get a frame and build it with what you could afford. You may have desired Campagnolo but you may have had to settle for Zeus - thus the Normandy hub.

I think Campy would be nice but you do have options.

Oh the forks - I'd stick with the track forks, they should be OK but probably a little twitchy and could have little toe clearance.

For $100 - I'd buy it. I think $200 wouldn't be unreasonable but I'd think twice about buying it for more.
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Postby Kid_Carbine » Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:47 pm

GarryF is right on the money. With the track forks, it will be a bit twitchy to ride at first, but keep the bike moving & it's a riding characteristic that is soon conquered & quickly appreciated if you like a good riding pace.

Check the seatpost for size. The seller claims that the tubing is "most likely" 531 D/B. If it is, then the correct seatpost will be 27.2mm [British seatpin size No.5], but if it's 26.8mm, then the tubing is something else, possibly 531 plain guage, but still good & both of my Nervex Pro lugged SJH track frames are 26.8 [British seatpin size No.4]

Agreed that the Normandy hubs were just as Gary said, one of those compromises that you made when you bought a quality frame but couldn't afford to make it a quality bike, ... at first. The hubs were a popular, affordable component & the double sided freewheel/fixed wheel threading means that the same wheel could be used for both the road & track season.
This is what happened with my stepfathers Lennie Rogers bike. I rebuilt it & completed it off the way that he wanted it, but couldn't afford at the time. [all Campy] That Campagnolo stuff was damned expensive back when it was new but quality stuff is quality stuff forever.
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Postby guidogad » Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:02 pm

I'd love to get my hands on anything with these Nervex lugs. I guess they are a sure bet on a high end frame in any case.
I wouldn'd do anything to it that can't be reversed - my vote would be to keep it classic.
Cheers,
Guido
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Postby winona_rider » Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:03 pm

wow - thanks guys...
awesome info!

so i have some more questions! and please forgive my ignorance...

with "toe clearance" do you mean for cornering - like your toes might get close to the wheel cause track bikes aren't made for cornering?

so could (or should) i put a new campy groupset on this bike?
and if not - would an old school groupset be readily resourced? (i got my heart set on campy btw)

i have a pretty decent budget - i mean, i have a bike already and i can take my time and get decent gear as funds get saved.

the things i like about this bike are the lug detail and the big triangular isosceles symmetry (is that silly?).

plus the 27 inch wheels with lots of spokes(!)
(and here i may be betraying how new to this I am) could you keep these? can you still get tyres? or can you buy new 27 inch wheels?

thanking u all again in advance

d
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Postby stevendavid75 » Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:37 pm

hhmmm thats on my watch list as well!
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Postby GaryF » Sun Jan 27, 2008 7:49 pm

The toe overlap with the front wheel isn't a problem when you'r riding along but if you slow down to a near stop and you turn the bars a bit more than normal sometimes your toe can foul the front wheel - result - falling off (or nearly). I've had a few bikes that do this but it's never a problem - you just remember it and allow for the toe overlap.

As for a Campy gruppo - it was always cheaper to buy a doner bike and use the parts. I've found the problem being that I get another bike - I don't strip it - just end up with another bike.

Sometimes you see complete gruppo's on ebay - the next cheapest option then finally you have can buy each component separately, probably from the same source.

As for groupset - I'd go for a Nuovo Record / Record groupset. Super Record was introduced in 1973. The Record groupset may be hard to find and expensive. It had a crankset with a 151mm PCD for the chainring bolt holes. This changed to 141mm PCD in 1968. Nuovo Record rear derailleur and bottom bracket were introduced in 1967. Yes, I'd look for a Nuovo Record Gruppo first. (Nuovo Record rear derailleur, Record front Derailleur, Record 141 pcd cranks, Record brakeset (introduced in 1868), 2 bolt micro adjustable seatpost and record hubs (if you want a full groupset) and cinelli bars and 1a stem.)

If that is difficult, I'd then look towards a Super Record Gruppo. Problem with that is that the 1st generation rear derailleur is very expensive (rare). You may be looking at $300 - $350 for the derailleur alone.

Next option - later model Super Record. Pretty easy to source and really good stuff.

A frame like yours would look best dressed up in the best 'era' components.

27" tyres are available at any bikeshop.

That sounds quite extensive but its stuff you can get over time.

I suggest checking out the Campyonly website - I think they have copies of the old Campy catalogues there. Have a look at catalogues #15, #16 & #17.

Best of luck,

Gary.
Last edited by GaryF on Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby europa » Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:14 pm

GaryF wrote:27" tyres are availableat any bikeshop.


I wouldn't say 'any' because some places like to pretend they don't exist. However, they aren't hard to get, even if you have to resort to BigW or Kmart.

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Postby Mulger bill » Sun Jan 27, 2008 9:48 pm

europa wrote:
GaryF wrote:27" tyres are availableat any bikeshop.


I wouldn't say 'any' because some places like to pretend they don't exist. However, they aren't hard to get, even if you have to resort to BigW or Kmart.

Richard


What about 27" rims? Sorry to threadjack, but I'm thinking of my project...

Shaun
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Postby europa » Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:28 am

Mulger bill wrote:
europa wrote:
GaryF wrote:27" tyres are availableat any bikeshop.


I wouldn't say 'any' because some places like to pretend they don't exist. However, they aren't hard to get, even if you have to resort to BigW or Kmart.

Richard


What about 27" rims? Sorry to threadjack, but I'm thinking of my project...

Shaun


The Velocity Twin Hollow :D

http://www.velocitywheels.com/default.asp?contentID=592

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Postby Mulger bill » Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:41 am

Thanks Richard, :) I'm assuming that sticking with 27" would mean I could upgrade with modern short reach brakes on the Tamari... :?

Sorry David, I'll shut up now... :oops:

Shaun
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Postby winona_rider » Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:50 am

no need to be sorry - it's all good info.
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Postby winona_rider » Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:33 pm

update: bike sold for $275...just over my limit.
dammit
:(
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