Advice needed on an unknown frame

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vonbaker
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Advice needed on an unknown frame

Postby vonbaker » Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:54 pm

i picked up this frame from a friend who found it on the side of the road during rubbish collections in Nedlands, WA. it was originally coated in house paint and another friend stripped it down to what you see here:

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trying to find out any information about it. what i know is that it is GB/UK British made, as indicated by the stem, which looking at the lugs, seem to be stock along with the frame

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as you can see, the frame features arrow shaped lugs at almost every instance

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i've been told that this hole is a grease hole, so maybe it indicates it age somehow?

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the only markings on the bike are the key i think, however i'm not sure where to start looking.
they read: "50 - 937" on the ND side and a tiny 5 on the D side. there is also a B R at the back of the BB shell that you cannot see in this photo

Image

it would've originally taken 27's i think, as they fit nice and tight. the fork dropouts are 9mm, as modern wheels don't fit it and the old 27's i have fit it. also, the rear spacing is 110mm. the frame is quite light, so i'm going to go out on a limb and say its Reynolds 531 (it is so much lighter than the lightest cro-mo frames i have).

and that's all i know, hopefully someone out there has more information?

vanbree
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Re: Advice needed on an unknown frame

Postby vanbree » Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:51 pm

Beautiful looking frame,looks like a 50's early 60's build ? defiantly a keeper :D

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vonbaker
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Re: Advice needed on an unknown frame

Postby vonbaker » Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:25 am

UPDATE:

i have been informed that the stem is by Gerry Burgess (GB), meaning the frame is now completely unknown, haha. http://www.classicrendezvous.com/British_isles/GB.htm

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HappyHumber
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Re: Advice needed on an unknown frame

Postby HappyHumber » Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:35 am

interesting.. no idea though myself ;)
Might have been better posted in the retro-biking subforum.. ?
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Mulger bill
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Re: Advice needed on an unknown frame

Postby Mulger bill » Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:41 am

Good idea, done.

Shaun
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Clydesdale Scot
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Re: Advice needed on an unknown frame

Postby Clydesdale Scot » Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:54 am

vonbaker wrote:i picked up this frame from a friend who found it on the side of the road during rubbish collections in Nedlands, WA.
....and that's all i know, hopefully someone out there has more information?

If it was me I would be knocking on the front door closest to where it was found.
In the meantime, I would be working with the date being 1950 as suggested by the BB stamping, the oil port and the GB Hiduminium spearpoint headstem.

It deserves a full restoration with period components, please not for a fixie
for inspiration look here

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silentbutdeadly
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Re: Advice needed on an unknown frame

Postby silentbutdeadly » Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:47 am

No idea...but a fine find

Have a hunt around http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/index.html
Ours is not to reason why...merely to point and giggle

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WyvernRH
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Re: Advice needed on an unknown frame

Postby WyvernRH » Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:55 am

Wow, that's very impressive. I can't say I've seen any frame with lug spearpoints that long. Someone went to a lot of trouble to build that one, I would say it is a one-off.
I think Clydesdale Scot has it right with the frame no, its a fair guess to say the 50 is for 1950 which would be right for that sort of cast b'bracket shell (tho they seem to appear on much later bikes in Oz) I'm pretty sure that model of GB stem did not appear until the late 50's but it could well be a later addition.
Look on the steerer column of the fork when you dissemble the forks from the frame. It will probably have a matching frame number and if you are lucky a tubing stamp which will let you know if you have a 531 or possible an Accles tubed frame. The 5 is probably a sprayers or framebuilders mark to identify them for payment (or blame :wink: )

What is the width between the rear dropouts and is the seatstay bridge drilled for brakes?

Cheers
Richard

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Re: Advice needed on an unknown frame

Postby Stuey » Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:08 pm

A mate asked where he should look for good verge finds. I suggested Nedlands, given many students and academics in the area would ride bikes over the years due to UWA and there must be a fair collection in that few square kilometres as the suburb is an older one. I think I was right... :wink:

Nice find.

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Clydesdale Scot
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Re: Advice needed on an unknown frame

Postby Clydesdale Scot » Tue Feb 07, 2012 6:41 pm

WyvernRH wrote:... I'm pretty sure that model of GB stem did not appear until the late 50's but it could well be a later addition.
Cheers
Richard

I understand the GB Hiduminium spearpoint preceeded the girder and would have been around by 1950.
Below is the writeup in The Bicycle Vol 25 No 641 of June 16, 1948
Image
the full page is here (after the writeup on the Chater Lea round arm cranks).
The Brown Brothers catalogue of 1952 has the GB spearpoint (referred to as the ordinary pattern), as well as the girder pattern, along with photographs.
I have the GB Hiduminium Spearpoint, GB Maes bars with engraved ferrule, and GB Hiduminium brakes, as well as those Chater Lea round arm craks and I had hoped my research was satisfactory :?
Philip

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WyvernRH
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Re: Advice needed on an unknown frame

Postby WyvernRH » Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:37 pm

Clydesdale Scot wrote:
WyvernRH wrote:... I'm pretty sure that model of GB stem did not appear until the late 50's but it could well be a later addition.
Cheers
Richard

I understand the GB Hiduminium spearpoint preceeded the girder and would have been around by 1950.
Below is the writeup in The Bicycle Vol 25 No 641 of June 16, 1948
<image snip>
the full page is here (after the writeup on the Chater Lea round arm cranks).
The Brown Brothers catalogue of 1952 has the GB spearpoint (referred to as the ordinary pattern), as well as the girder pattern, along with photographs.
I have the GB Hiduminium Spearpoint, GB Maes bars with engraved ferrule, and GB Hiduminium brakes, as well as those Chater Lea round arm craks and I had hoped my research was satisfactory :?
Philip


Well you are clearly quite right! :oops:
I must admit that my impression was that only the girder alloy stems were available in the 40's and early 50's but there it is in black and white in the 1948 article and also in the '52 Brown Bros catalogue along with the rare 'Stratalight' (never seen one of these in real life).
Interestingly I cannot find a GB advert that mentions the alloy spearpont tem in my collection of 'Cycling' magazines that span the 47 > 52 period (tho it has gaps) but the steel 'Spearpoint' stems are advertised. Possibly aimed at a more conservative audience (which Cycling clearly was) than The Bicycle? Also given the export orientated economy, rationing and material shortages the alloy ones (of all sorts) might have been quite rare until the early 50's. They were certainly expensive at 17 to 20 shillings tho surprisingly the steel ones were even more expensive according to Brown Bros!
They also made that model, virtually unaltered, for a long time. Way into the 60's until they were replaced in the range by the more modern looking rounded models.
Image
Here they are referred to as the 'Standard '. This long run means they are quite commonly found compared to the steel ones which seem to fetch a motza on e-Bay these days.
Cheers
Richard

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Clydesdale Scot
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Re: Advice needed on an unknown frame

Postby Clydesdale Scot » Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:04 pm

Image
from the 1949 Aids to Happy Cycling.
Sandy promoted virtues of the strength (of his house brand stems) with attractive spearpoint design. But it was only available in the longest option, and the most expensive!
To sum up, spearpoints were in style in England from the late 1940s.
Philip

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Re: Advice needed on an unknown frame

Postby HappyHumber » Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:18 pm

awww man... I really hope the OP is not going to ficksafy this beaut... it sure deserves some dignity.
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vonbaker
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Re: Advice needed on an unknown frame

Postby vonbaker » Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:47 am

i gotta let you guys know, since you're kinda focused on the stem; the one of the previous owners has drilled a really bad hole right thru the middle of the stem, so i will not be using it, due to safety reasons.

also, had a look at the steerer column and there are no new serials, just the same B R on the BB. maybe this indicates a potential builder?

HappyHumber wrote:awww man... I really hope the OP is not going to ficksafy this beaut... it sure deserves some dignity.


LOLWUT "ficksafy"? i don't have period parts but i have a campag track wheelset and i am sourcing decent parts and painting the frame myself. this is definitely a case of one man's trash... and its unquestionably a treasure in my eyes.

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HappyHumber
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Re: Advice needed on an unknown frame

Postby HappyHumber » Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:27 am

vonbaker wrote:LOLWUT "ficksafy"? i don't have period parts but i have a campag track wheelset and i am sourcing decent parts and painting the frame myself. this is definitely a case of one man's trash... and its unquestionably a treasure in my eyes.
You obviously knew what I meant, I was just trying to create my own meme rather like "LOLWUT" has caught on from however you picked it on that term yourself. Forgive me for not being as "with it".

I just hope whatever you do, the base frame you've found goes unmodified. Paint it whatever wild colour, use aerospak wheels and use whatever poseur type bar choice you desire, but at least please help to maintain some integrity & heritage that it has left. Once you've moved onto other builds or need to sell it because of other life priorities, it'll be worth more as you've already shown us.
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HappyHumber
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Re: Advice needed on an unknown frame

Postby HappyHumber » Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:30 am

Oh yeah... and please don't get cleaned up by a Bus or other heavy vehicle whilst you're riding it. That'll be bound to upset us ol' crumpy gunts in terms of frame mods ;)
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munga
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Re: Advice needed on an unknown frame

Postby munga » Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:06 am

ie: 'rock a brake, yo'

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Clydesdale Scot
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Re: Advice needed on an unknown frame

Postby Clydesdale Scot » Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:35 am

vonbaker wrote:i gotta let you guys know, since you're kinda focused on the stem; the one of the previous owners has drilled a really bad hole right thru the middle of the stem, so i will not be using it, due to safety reasons.

is the hole in the same position as this?
Image
if so, it is the much rarer version for centrepull brakes, so you didn't need a hanger. It is factory made that way.
see in use here
I was focusing on the stem as it can be a clue to the age of the frame, and the fashion of the period.
The hole in the stem, if it is the same as the photo, guides you to the brakes used on the frame in the past.

That is a nice frame, worth collecting the right parts for. I am sure there would be a queue to buy the frame from you. I'm first.
My late 1940s bike was reborn initially as a fixed gear, but it has seen the light and is in full period paintwork and components now.

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vonbaker
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Re: Advice needed on an unknown frame

Postby vonbaker » Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:36 pm

^ i've had a closer look at the stem and yes, the hole position is the same as your photo C. Scot. there is threading on the top too so yeah, i was wrong about it being drilled unprofessionally. the bottom of the hole is chipped and cracked though.

also here is a photo of the rear:

Image

i've seen a similar brake bridge on two ancient path racers before but... yeah... similar.

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Clydesdale Scot
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Re: Advice needed on an unknown frame

Postby Clydesdale Scot » Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:32 pm

back to your original question, any chance of locating the house from where it was rescued?
I would love to know of the make and the history of the frame.

We need the experience of Bicyclepassion, Kidcarbine, Spirito, Silverlight, Cludence... to step in to solve the riddle.

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WyvernRH
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Re: Advice needed on an unknown frame

Postby WyvernRH » Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:12 pm

From the rear bridge I think you can safely say it is an Australian frame, I've only seen that style of bridge here in Oz.
Cheers
Richard

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spirito
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Re: Advice needed on an unknown frame

Postby spirito » Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:03 pm

Wild stab. Flash Cycles, Mt Lawley. You'd have to check others and see if they have similar details, lug laminates and methods of construction.

Failing that I'd be ID'ing as mnay framebuilders from WA from that era and matching them.
Cranky Jim wrote: God did not invent gears. Men invented gears ... because we are not gods.

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vonbaker
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Re: Advice needed on an unknown frame

Postby vonbaker » Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:24 am

no luck on finding the kerbside's house. he saw the bike, grabbed it and looked for other junk.

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Clydesdale Scot
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Re: Advice needed on an unknown frame

Postby Clydesdale Scot » Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:08 am

it was worth a try.
Another suggestion to see if it is a West Australian frame. Contact the West Australian Vintage Cycle Club They seem to be active.

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Re: Advice needed on an unknown frame

Postby RobertFrith » Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:27 am

Another one of these frames showed up on the facheache retro market page. I've been in touch by PM with vonbaker about it already. He still has the frame he posted about originally. Now there are two. Still no clues as to the make but the fact that a second one has shown up in Perth does make it look likely that it was locally built. Here's a link to number 2 (a pols, this will only work if you're on FB I think)... http://www.facebook.com/groups/retrocyc ... 190428939/

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