Hillman road frame

Vintage, yesteryear and retro biking

Hillman road frame

Postby kukamunga » Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:53 am

Ok. Here is the Hillman frame I picked up a couple of weeks ago (and mentioned near end of this thread):-

Image
Frame came pretty much as you see, minus a few 'Suntour' cable guides and clamp-on down tube shifters. Interesting 'Zeus' seatpost (26.6mm - see seperate post)

Image
There are quite a few scraped, scratched and 'touched-up' areas of paintwork where cable guides and shifters were mounted. There is a slight 'ding' on LHS of down tube near BB, but otherwise straight

Image
Nice headtube. Frame has a few similarities (including size) to my 'Wentworth'. Decals appear to be handpainted

Image
Benelux 'REGDDESIGN' 'CLO' (?) rear dropouts. Unthreaded hanger requires special nut (Kid?)

Image
Fork tips the same or very similar as 'Wentworth' (must get a tripod for my camera!)

Image
Bottom bracket with standard 'British/ I.S.O' thread. This is also very similar to Wentworth, with '84 ?' cast on bottom

Image
My writing indicates ~weight of frame alone (2.2kg); with fork & incomplete headset (+800gm = 3.1kg); + seatpost (300gm)

I have emailed Hillman Cycles to ask them about the frame, but it appears that I may have to phone or pay them a visit. They have been around and making frames here in Melbourne for over 60 years. I think this frame may be from the late 50's.

I may strip down the Wentworth soon to clean it up and check BB threads, dimensions etc., then decide on which frame to keep! :wink: The Wentworth would make a better geared bike as it has most of the necessary brazed-on cable guides. The Hillman might just make a nice single-speeder!
God save the ABC & SBS.....
User avatar
kukamunga
 
Posts: 3492
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 9:12 am
Location: SE Melburbs, on a bike, on a train......

by BNA » Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:05 am

BNA
 

Postby MountGower » Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:05 am

2.2kg from the late 50's. If I had even known this was possible, I'd have done a lot more bidding on these frames. What tubeset is it made from?
MountGower
 

Postby GaryF » Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:49 am

I just like Hillmans - well built, honest and reliable frames built for a purpose - to race.

Yours is a very nice example - interesting lugwork and dropouts. Talking with the Hills over the years, I think function is far more important to them than looks - the frames had to work. For example, the paint colour was Henry Hills favourite colour because it was the most visible colour on a 'bad' day.
User avatar
GaryF
 
Posts: 789
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 12:38 am
Location: Hervey Bay, Queensland.

Postby Kid_Carbine » Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:06 pm

kukamunga wrote:
Image

Benelux 'REGDDESIGN' 'CLO' (?) rear dropouts. Unthreaded hanger requires special nut (Kid?)

The lettering on my fork end [dropout] has the words "Benelux Regd Design" on the right side & "Benelux Cyclo" on the left.

The 'special nut' will probably be a part of the derailleur, however my candidates for fitment here are equiped with their own mounting bracket & in order to use it, surgical removal of this dropout mounting would be necessary, ... something I am not prepared to do, so I will continue to scrounge untill I come up with something suitable.

I have a new French Cyclo 3 speed derailleur complete & this is a possibility, but would prefer to use one of my Simplex Tour de France units [not possible] or a proper English Cyclo Benelux derailleur.
I have a Cyclo Benelux 5 speed on my early 50's 'Olympic' road racer [Ray Pantlin, Guilford in Sydney] but it's a complete original bike & I don't want to rob it for parts.
Perhaps I will find a suitable Cyclo Benelux chain gear mech. for it in the near future.
I have a couple of new English Cyclo 3 speed freewheels but would prefer to use my Regina 4 speed. Only cutting edge technology used here ya know

Image
Carbine & SJH cycles, & Quicksilver BMX
Now that's AUSTRALIAN to the core.
User avatar
Kid_Carbine
 
Posts: 1297
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 11:35 pm
Location: Southern Highlands N.S.W.

Postby stevendavid75 » Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:16 pm

Hi kukamunga,
Just wondering if you got my PM.

Cheers
Steve
stevendavid75
 
Posts: 428
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2007 10:43 pm
Location: melbourne

Postby WyvernRH » Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:59 am

[quote]
Benelux 'REGDDESIGN' 'CLO' (?) rear dropouts. Unthreaded hanger requires special nut (Kid?)
###
The 'special nut' will probably be a part of the derailleur, however my candidates for fitment here are equiped with their own mounting bracket & in order to use it, surgical removal of this dropout mounting would be necessary, ... something I am not prepared to do, so I will continue to scrounge untill I come up with something suitable.
[quote]

Quite right, the attachment bolt for the Benelux/Cyclo derailleur will fit this dropout.. possibly....I have several of these gears of varying ages in my derailler collection and a couple on bikes. All of the gear hangers, including the "built in" dropout hangers on the bikes are threaded requiring the deralleur bolt to be wound in and then locked by another nut on the back of the dropout - very fiddly! The catch is I have found three different threads on bolts and dropouts only one of which matches the current standard thread.;-)
It may be this problem which has caused nearly everyone I have seen over here in Oz to have the thread removed. Also, this example has been modified for a Campag/Huret gear with a "stop notch" being cut into the hanger. This was a popular way to upgrade to more modern gears, in which case you would also need to re-thread to standard or get rid of the thread in the dropout and use a locknut on the back (seen this done a lot! Bicycle mechanics/owners tend not to be subtle chaps at times...) The Benelux gear design did not need a notch as the limiter was built into the gear.
So, IMHO what you have here is a hanger for a Benelux Mk 5/7 racing gear that has been modded to take a more modern gear later in life. Note that Simplex gears also did not need the stop notch, so it wasn't an upgrade to Simplex and you can work out from the position of the notch if the mod was for a Huret or a Campag gear as the notch postion is different (assuming the modder did it right ;-))

Kid, I may have a spare mk7 Benelux in my collection to swap, let me know if you are interested.

Cheers

Richard
WyvernRH
 
Posts: 1675
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:41 pm
Location: Newcastle NSW

Postby Kid_Carbine » Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:29 am

WyvernRH wrote:
Benelux 'REGDDESIGN' 'CLO' (?) rear dropouts. Unthreaded hanger requires special nut (Kid?)

Quite right, the attachment bolt for the Benelux/Cyclo derailleur will fit this dropout.. possibly....I have several of these gears of varying ages in my derailler collection and a couple on bikes. All of the gear hangers, including the "built in" dropout hangers on the bikes are threaded requiring the deralleur bolt to be wound in and then locked by another nut on the back of the dropout - very fiddly!

Kid, I may have a spare mk7 Benelux in my collection to swap, let me know if you are interested.

Cheers

Richard

Richard

I have just examined my Cyclo dropout with a magnifier & I found no evidence whatsoever to suggest that it had ever been threaded in the dérailleur mounting hole.In fact, the hole does not even appear to have been drilled, but punched out during the manufacturing process.

This would suggest that the dérailleur used a shouldered bolt that was secured on the inside with a nut & it would have been original equipment with the dérailleur.
It's possible, I suppose, that the Hilman frame uses a newer version of the dropout & this may account for the variation. Cyclo didn't close it's doors untill the year 2000 so anything's possible.

Thank you for the offer to trade, ... you have a PM from me.
Carbine & SJH cycles, & Quicksilver BMX
Now that's AUSTRALIAN to the core.
User avatar
Kid_Carbine
 
Posts: 1297
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 11:35 pm
Location: Southern Highlands N.S.W.

Postby kukamunga » Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:41 pm

All this talk on 'cyclo', 'simplex' and 'special nuts' is sending me cyclotic, simplex, and especially nutty ! :?
God save the ABC & SBS.....
User avatar
kukamunga
 
Posts: 3492
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 9:12 am
Location: SE Melburbs, on a bike, on a train......

Postby Kid_Carbine » Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:12 pm

Of course the English Rose is nice but Italia knows how to satisfy a mans appetites. I go all Gnutti over delicious Magistroni. Mmmmm best enjoyed with white wine & a hot tart.
Carbine & SJH cycles, & Quicksilver BMX
Now that's AUSTRALIAN to the core.
User avatar
Kid_Carbine
 
Posts: 1297
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 11:35 pm
Location: Southern Highlands N.S.W.

Postby stryker84 » Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:04 pm

How did you go with Hillman today? Was tempted to sneak a ride there (the shop is only max 10 mins away from my place) and perhaps get a glimpse of the bike, but the weather decided it would be best if I stay indoors.

Same again tomorrow, looks like.
stryker84
 
Posts: 1817
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 8:38 pm
Location: Warrnambool

Postby kukamunga » Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:00 pm

Gordon Hill (frame builder) is away on holidays till next week, so won' be able to find out much more till then. Did discover a possible reason why the frame was thrown out though....... :?
User avatar
kukamunga
 
Posts: 3492
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 9:12 am
Location: SE Melburbs, on a bike, on a train......

Postby Kid_Carbine » Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:14 pm

And that reason is, ......?
Keep in mind that, as long as the frame is worth it, ... it can be repaired, such is the beauty of steel, unlike those other inferior materials that they use nowdays.

Interesting to note that some of the most beautiful & ornate lugwork came into being in the immediate pre war & on up to the late 50's period. Lugs gave great strength, & for some, even greater beauty. Ahhhhhh the Late 40's & 50's, may they never end.

I just realised that this frame has what looks to be a serial number on the chainstay socket on the right of picture.
My Whippet frame that uses the same Cyclo rear tips as this frame also has a number in this location & aligned the same way with the same character sizes. It reads A277, possibly A2771 but the '1' is so indistinct that it may be a manufacturing mark.
My B/B shell does not have the three characters cast in as this one does.
Two strong but unusual similarities, ... Hmmmmmmm.

Image
Carbine & SJH cycles, & Quicksilver BMX
Now that's AUSTRALIAN to the core.
User avatar
Kid_Carbine
 
Posts: 1297
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 11:35 pm
Location: Southern Highlands N.S.W.

Postby stryker84 » Fri Mar 14, 2008 3:33 am

Kid, I believe the Blucher frame I have (which I've been tryng desperately to remove half a seatpost from - no joy, will have to machine it out someday) has some sort of serial number in roughly the same location as well. Will have a look when it's light.
stryker84
 
Posts: 1817
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 8:38 pm
Location: Warrnambool

Postby kukamunga » Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:23 pm

Did discover a possible reason why the frame was thrown out though.......
Kid_Carbine wrote:And that reason is, ......?

Well, it's nowhere as obvious as this unfortunate 2.25kg Shogun chromoly frame.....
Image

.....or this Apollo III frame.....
Image
(any hope for these frames?)

.....but the tell-tale damaged paint on the Hillman should have indicated to me a lot earlier..... (just have to upload photo......) :roll: :wink:
Last edited by kukamunga on Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
kukamunga
 
Posts: 3492
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 9:12 am
Location: SE Melburbs, on a bike, on a train......

Postby kukamunga » Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:41 pm

Just for comparison, while waiting for Hillman pic to 'upload' ( :wink: :wink: ), the BB of the Wentworth again:-

Image
User avatar
kukamunga
 
Posts: 3492
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 9:12 am
Location: SE Melburbs, on a bike, on a train......

Postby Kid_Carbine » Fri Mar 14, 2008 6:56 pm

The Wentworth uses the same chainstay bridge, or brace, as does my Whippet.

Both the Shogun & the Apollo can be repaired, but I would suggest that the Apollo is really worth scrap value & little more, going on the design of the bottom bracket & from the ornate lugwork that we can see.

As for the Shogun, it would seem that while it is repairable, one must ask, is it 'economically' repairable.
Lets face it, the Shogun doesn't seem to have much going for it. It was not a custom frame, made from Reynolds 531 d/b tubing or other, even better quality Reynolds tube, built in a dingy little shed behind a one store bike shop by an artisan who took pride in his top quality workmanship.
Nor is it an antique classic. In the end, it's just another Kelvinator. [mass produced whitegoods]

It has potential, but, in my limited view, the money would most likely be better spent on something both undamaged, & interesting.
Just an opinion.
Last edited by Kid_Carbine on Sat Mar 15, 2008 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
Carbine & SJH cycles, & Quicksilver BMX
Now that's AUSTRALIAN to the core.
User avatar
Kid_Carbine
 
Posts: 1297
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 11:35 pm
Location: Southern Highlands N.S.W.

Postby kukamunga » Sat Mar 15, 2008 3:04 am

The Apollo is 'Made in Japan', of hi-tensile steel I believe, with Kuwuhara dropouts/ fork tips and headset, and SHIMANO cable guides on that BB. The 'candy-apple red' paint job, logos, badges and headset look nice, and the forks could be useful.....
Image

The Shogun (made in Taiwan/ China I guess?) is double butted chromoly, and would've been a nice frame.....
Image

But enough diversionary tactics and back to the real topic. The Hillman photo has finally uploaded! :wink: .....
Image
DOH! :shock: :roll: :(

I'll talk to Gordon Hill soon and see what he thinks. One of the other Hillman staff didn't seem to think it was a Hillman frame at all when I took it in the other day, because of the Benelux dropouts and serial # (3950). Will have to wait and see :?
User avatar
kukamunga
 
Posts: 3492
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 9:12 am
Location: SE Melburbs, on a bike, on a train......

Postby Kid_Carbine » Sat Mar 15, 2008 9:45 am

Well the Shogun would have been a very nice ride before the, ..... well, before.
Good tube quality, but unfortunately thin tube does tend to take it a bit harder in a crash. I presume that the forks are also unserviceable, so replacements would be needed. Fixable, but is it worth it? Wall hanger perhaps?

The crack in the Hilman is a mere inconvenience to a competant frame builder who would have that tube replaced in under an hour.
If the crack had been allowed to propagate & the tube eventually break then the top tube would need replacement as well.

In my view, keeping in mind that only one tube requires replacement & the forks are good, that this one is a fixy.
It would then need paint, but it doesn't have the original 50's paint with all it's lovely pinstriping anyway so an original paint job will not be lost.
Carbine & SJH cycles, & Quicksilver BMX
Now that's AUSTRALIAN to the core.
User avatar
Kid_Carbine
 
Posts: 1297
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 11:35 pm
Location: Southern Highlands N.S.W.


Return to Retro biking

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: TedDancin, Typhoon Ken



Popular Bike Shops
Torpedo 7 Torpedo7 AU
Ground Effect Ground Effect NZ
Chain Reaction Cycles CRC UK
Wiggle Wiggle UK
Ebay Ebay AU



InTouch with BNA
“Bicycles BNA Twitter
“Bicycles BNA Facebook
“Google+ BNA Google+
“Bicycles BNA Newsletter