The value of classic bikes

[Kid_Carbine]

This new old stock Ideale 80 Record saddle from the 60's/70's gives a small insight into the world of true clasic bicycles. Ideale made saddles that easily surpassed Brooks for quality over a wide range of saddle models for many years & I'm glad I have a mod 92 Diagonale on one of my machines. Pure bliss.

It went up for auction on eBay with an opening price of $299 US. It sold at the end of auction for $865 US. Thats almost $960 Aus.
Component price helps to set the value of the completed bicycle.

It's one of their all-but hand made models with the Duralumin chassis & factory micro adjust clamp. The number of these that survive in new condition wouldn't be high & can probably be counted on your thumbs but if this one fetched this much, it sets the benchmark for the next one.
Too damn rich for my blood.

[GaryF]

$865!!!! What were they worth new?

I remember XY Falcon GT's sellling for about $4000 in 1971/2. Now the sky's the limit. Is that what's happening with Ideal saddles?

[stryker84]

Probably... and that is one sexy saddle. Classic look. And if you say they may be better than Brooks... drool...

[Kid_Carbine]

A couple of points to note.

Ideale no longer exist, so new saddles are a non event.
This was one of their very best saddle models with the Duralumin chassis.
It was always an extremely rare [& probably expensive] model.
It is still new & dripping with prestige.
Thanks to ebay, it's now an international market with potentially millions more buyers.
Some Americans, Japanese & people from some Arab countries are just rolling in spare cash.
Everybody wants the very best for their classic era lightweight.
For some people, droping $960 Aus on a bike saddle is about the same as me spending $1 on a can of fizzy drink.

I was going to have a go at it untill I saw the opening bid price [$299 US] That changed my mind pretty quickly.

[oldtimer]

Kid_Carbine,
If you are building a virtual classic bike, you might be able to use this dérailleur at approx $1400.00 with a day and a half left to bid.


oldtimer

[stevendavid75]

i cant wait to see the rest of this virtual bike, is the frame going to be a rene herse?

[531db]

i cant wait to see the rest of this virtual bike, is the frame going to be a rene herse?

Nope, a Hetchins Magnum Opus or Bonum.

[Kid_Carbine]

OK, this is a new, but potentially exciting twist, ..... the ultimate [virtual] classic lightweight. [English, French, Italian, mid 30's to late 50's]

OK, I'm in.
Lets concentrate on the frame alone at this point & I have a fondness for the Bates BAR [best all rounder] with Cantiflex tubing & diadrant forks as a single speed with two brakes.
If we work through one component at a time it will reduce confusion

So lets have a short list of candidates. Some small pictures would be good too, but keep them sort of, large postage stamp size so I can stick them in a single post.

Rene' Herse
Hetchings Magnum Opus or Bonum.
Bates BAR
Hobbs of Barbican Blue Riband [another favorite of mine.]

Let the [virtual] game begin.

[kukamunga]

For some people, droping $960 Aus on a bike saddle is about the same as me spending $1 on a can of fizzy drink.

Save $1 and drink tap water

Lets concentrate on the frame alone at this point.....

FRAME: Wheeler 'Chiostra 7200 Raceline'

Rene' Herse? Why don't you give Bicycle Recycle here in Melbourne a call and see if they've got any lying around?

[oldtimer]

Kid carbine,
This frame mightn't be old enough.

1950s Lehner road frame US$300.00 3 days to go.

[stevendavid75]

I must say , I was surprised that bike ever got to B recycle and I honestly thought the guy there would have realised what he had stumbled across, serious oversite.

[Kid_Carbine]

For the purpose of the exercise, lets say thet the Classic era covers the period from circa mid 30's to the mid 60's & out virtual bike was a production model, available either as a bike or a frameset.
It would basically cover the classic English, French & Italian lightweights, but if something else from another country is well enough known to qualify, then so be it.
The idea is to realistically be able to actually build the final machine from [potentially] available components today, assuming that time & funding were not really an obstacle.
Again, for the purpose of this exercise, we would be looking for something in single speed, & roadable, so dual purpose track/road should be fine & this should simplify component selection by eliminating derailleurs, geared hubs, multi speed freewheels or multi speed cranksets.

Any other suggestions that will help maintain the focus without spearing off into one-off bespoke machines as these might be classic, but not something that was available to a wide customer base I I hope to avoid something too obscure. I'm trying to keep this relatively simple & moving along.

GaryF
Like the Falcon GT, a new 1970's one would fetch a LOT, but a beat up ex taxi pretty much couldn't be given away. Same with this saddle, Ideale made a lot of much more affordable models for regular bikes & these can be bought much more cheaply second hand. It's only the prestige top end models that are NOS that bring the really big bucks.

Oldtimer
An almost new 1951 example of the Gran Sport derailleur [like this one] went for over $6,000 recently on eBay relatively recently [gasp]. The original box it came in & the original clamp-on single shifter were sold separately.
The 1950's Lehner frameset most definately qualifies age-wise but I must admit I know nothing of this maker. Any more info?
Just found it & it's very nice indeed. I wonder if it was a production model.

Wheeler 'Chiostra 7200 Raceline'?
It might well have been a very nice bike for all I know, but somehow I suspect that it probably doesn't qualify as a 'Classic' lightweight.

[GaryF]

OK Kid Carbine, a single speed or flip / flop, road/track frame.

I reckon Reynolds 531 tubing should be the standard as well - as in your Bates BAR.

I also think a classic bike from the 50's or 60's would probably be geared. It would be really difficult to ignore the impact of Campagnolo so I would narrow the classic era down to pre 50's.

Personally, I love Italian bikes such as Bianchi, Garra, Legnano, Gloria, etc, and would consider an Italian frame because of their impact on continental racing during that era. I think the Italian lugwork is minimalistic yet finely crafted.

French bikes - I just can't warm to any French bike - they just look 'industrial' to me and lack the beauty of a finely filed and fitted Italian or British frame.

British bike frames seemed to be more carefully crafted with ornate lugwork and thought put into the placement of necessary fittings. The British also had the 'on hand' support of Reynolds. Raleigh, as you no doubt know, had a very tight working relationship with Reynolds.

The Americans seemed to take another path although their Schwinn Paramounts were very desirable. Their real classics were the balloon tyred Schwinns.

How about us Aussies? We produced some classic bikes of that era. Who in the world of bicycles doesn't know of Malvern Star? Than you have a feast of other wonderful bike builders - Carbine, Super Elliot, etc, etc.

The rest of the framebuilding world? Did the rest of the world's framebuilders have an influence here in Australia? Should this influence our virtual frame considerations? I suppose there is only a handful of people considering the 'virtual bike' so all influences should be considered.

My vote though - for a virtual frame - would be sourced from Britain. My personal favourite would be a Hetchins frame - with the curly stays and ornate lugwork of course. These frames, with the ornate lugwork, were first built in the 1950's which crosses over into the Campagnolo era so perhaps I should be considering a geared frame.

A Bates BAR is highly regarded, of course, but I really can't visually get used to the front forks. I think Bates introduced the front forks in 1935 to make their frames instantly recognisable. Hetchins did the same thing with their rear end introducing the curly stays in the 1930's as well and for the same reason. I think Hetchin's applied for a patent for their rear stays in 1934. Which company was first? I don't know and I suppose it really doesn't matter. I just like the visual appeal of the curly rear end.

It will be interesting to get everyones point of view. A good place to start is the British "Classic Lightweights UK" website.

[MichaelB]

I suppose that the seatpost required will depend on the frameset used, but how is this for a starter - probably a bit later than the period required, but

Campag Gran Sport Seatpost

USD $300 with 3 days to go ....

[GaryF]

The Campy. Gran Sport seatpost was available in 1956. It was a steel post and worked really well although fiddly to adjust. I have one on my Master Sport and love it.

It is a worthy contender as it started a trend in seatposts that were copied by companies in Spain and Japan and was in production in alloy form for 20 odd years.

[stevendavid75]

Having a look at velo base for a stem, iKnow this one doesnt have a date range but so simple and if it doesnt qualify a chrome cinelli stem from the same or similar mould otherwise a titan but this is my pick



or this

[Kid_Carbine]

OK, after some consultation, I think that we could do well by starting a new thread & build the most desirable Virtual Classic that we can, but build it up one nominated component at a time. When we have settled on that, we move to the next item, just like a real bike.

In order to keep it moving along, I suggest some guidelines.

The virtual bike needs to be based on components that could conceivably be sourced today through jumbles, friends, advertisments in cycle mags & of course eBay, so it will need to be built from components that were both desirable & reasonably available. This would tend to rule out one-off items, even if they are extremely desirable.
The objective is to maintain the concept that one could possibly duplicate it as a real bike today [with patience & money] & this will avoid the 'fantasy' bike.

I want to keep it as a single speed to reduce the total number of components & keep things moving along to a realistic conclusion. This single speed concept would very likely limit the period to the 20 odd years from the mid 30's to the mid 50's.
This will also help avoid conflict with the 'best vintage' thread.

I think we should start with the frame & once it is selected, we should stick with components that could be purchased when the frame was new.
This isn't as restrictive as it might seem. Harden discontinued hub manufacture in about 1951, but new [old stock] Harden hubs were readily available for at least a decade after that. The same applied to many components.

When nominating an item, it would be good if each one of us gave a reason for that choice.

There are many true classics that were catalogued models, but not many were sold exactly as per the catalogue as the wishes & desires of each purchaser were usually well canvased before these bikes were built. The real classics were, in the main, built to customers order, even if they were, as I said, a catalogued model.
Lets see what we can tick on the order sheet.

What do you blokes think.

[stevendavid75]

counds good to me KC,
Can I assume from your last question though that Cludence can not contribute?

[GaryF]

Sounds good to me too.

I've already had my say on frame choice so I'll shut -up and consider other opinions.

Gary.

[kukamunga]

counds good to me KC,
Can I assume from your last question though that Cludence can not contribute?

Sheilas can be blokes too, can't they?

[kukamunga]

Sorry.... Chicks !

[kukamunga]

Kid_Carbine,
If you are building a virtual classic bike, you might be able to use this dérailleur at approx $1400.00 with a day and a half left to bid.


oldtimer

Dammit! My 1963 Claud Butler 'Super Courer' had one of these derailleurs, I'm pretty sure!

[WyvernRH]

[quote="kukamunga Dammit! My 1963 Claud Butler 'Super Courer' had one of these derailleurs, I'm pretty sure! [/quote]

Not quite but very simular! A bit later and more available model I think?
I took one off my CB 'Super Courier' in the mid-70's and mounted a SunTour Vx which worked MUCH better! The Campag went into the spares box which is where it is today if anyone wants to make a silly offer for it

Cheers
Richard

[oldtimer]

Lehner Road frame,
Sold for US$510.00

oldtimer