58 Pages and Still No Idea on MS ID (2 star)

Vintage, yesteryear and retro biking

58 Pages and Still No Idea on MS ID (2 star)

Postby mxmort » Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:38 pm

Hey lads
Only new to the forum but after reading 58 pages in the retro section i was amazed with the knowledge and cool stories. I thought i would be able to work out year but i didnt find one quite the same.I normally only build bmx's but after finding an old malvern star and a couple of young punks trying to steal my quicksilver cruiser the other week im keen on building it up as my local rider. Heres some info on the bike
Serial number is P 4597 which i worked out was built in Perth and must be after 1941. There isnt a number before the P which is used for the year prefix. Serial is stamped on drive side seat post not non drive like most.
Stamped BSA A83 under bottom bracket which seems common.
Fork dropouts are 89mm wide and rear is 109mm wide
Brampton stamped bottom bracket but cant find any stamping on headset
Phillips stamped pedal but cant find any stamping on crank
Seatpost has 3 stamped on it and running writing that looks like WIB or WJB (i think)
Rear wheel is 26inch and has a Perry stamped hub 40-14 (couldnt find any info on 26 inch wheels only 27 and 28)
Forks have a hole drilled in for brake but dont think was done by MS as its a good 2mm off centre and the rear hole is ellogated badly.
Pics
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Any info would be awwsome
Thanks
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by BNA » Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:58 pm

BNA
 

Re: 58 Pages and Still No Idea on MS ID (2 star)

Postby mxmort » Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:58 pm

Nearly 100 views and still no reply's
Any help on parts and frame year would be awesome
Thanks in advance
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Re: 58 Pages and Still No Idea on MS ID (2 star)

Postby ldrcycles » Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:06 pm

My knowledge of older bikes is limited but i know Brampton was a UK make, my dad's 1954 Healing that i restored last year had a Brampton BB, the headset was also Brampton, and yours looks similar.

Perry hubs were fairly common, i think they were UK made.

If your wheel is 26 inch, it should be a 26 x 1-3/8, fairly common back then but be aware they are not interchangeable with 26" mountain bike tyres. 26 x 1-3/8 tyres and tubes are still available online though.

And there's a bloke on here called Kid Carbine who i am sure would LOVE to hear about/see pics of your quicksilver.
When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments- Elizabeth West.
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Re: 58 Pages and Still No Idea on MS ID (2 star)

Postby bicyclepassion » Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:18 pm

OK, here goes:
P4597 does not look like any Malvern Star number I have seen, but that may just mean that this is the first I have seen that takes this form.
We can assume that the P is for 'Perth'.
It is unusual to have the number on the drive side of the seat lug, but this does not mean much.
The BSA A83 bottom bracket shell was used from the mid 1930's onwards, I assume until they ran out of them, I think sometime during WW2?
The stars in the fork crown appeared in 1934.
It looks like it has a special Tecalemit oiler in the bottom bracket, rather than a flip top oiler. These were used in Malvern Stars from mid 1930's until possibly late 1940's.
WIB or WJB on seat post is actually W & B, stands for Walton and Brown. (Big English parts manaufacturer)
No. 3 stamped on seat post is the size. They came in 1 to 4 sizes.
The '40 14' on the perry hub I think stands for 40 holes and 14 gauge (spokes).
It looks like the 26" wheel is a ring-in. Lots of clearance there. Have you tried a 28" wheel in it? Check ground clearance with tyres on, on both size wheels. The pedals will be too close to the ground if wrong size wheel used. (It will be 26 or 28, not 27".)
There may be a serial number on the fork steerer. You will have to take the fork out to check.
If I had to have a stab at the age of this bike, I would say early war years, say 1941 or 42.
Warren
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Re: 58 Pages and Still No Idea on MS ID (2 star)

Postby mxmort » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:54 pm

Thanks for the replies lads
I tried to id myself reading through the all pages but got confused with the stamping
With the stamping i have no idea as it is stamped different to all the MS pages i have read. (no number before letter)
The P looks to be Perth which prety much common sense and i did find it in country WA
I agree 100% with the 26 rear being a ring in. Have tried a 28 and it fits way better also their was a badly buckled 28 front next to the bike and the hub fits perfect.
Im not sure what a tecalemit oiler is may need a bit of a explaination.
The Perry hub is 40 hole so u r on the money there
I will try to remove forks and have a look for any stamping
Thanks
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Re: 58 Pages and Still No Idea on MS ID (2 star)

Postby 5antos » Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:42 am

Here's mine. Sorry for old mobile pics but it's dark in the shed so these'll do. From memory it's got a Phillips rear hub with a 53 date. 70's respray and decals. Bought locally so again assuming P for Perth. Number is on the right dropout as usual though. P9255 - thought it might have been 1955. But then again maybe not.

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Re: 58 Pages and Still No Idea on MS ID (2 star)

Postby mxmort » Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:42 pm

Nice bike 5antos looks good mate
Looks like our perth made bikes were stamped a little different to the rest from over east
Quick question
Is there anything i should know about removing headset so i can look for stamping on forks??
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Re: 58 Pages and Still No Idea on MS ID (2 star)

Postby 5antos » Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:42 pm

Yep. When you loosen that headset a million tiny bearings are going to fall out and roll under something. Been there. I lay an old white sheet down and drop the headtube down over it before loosening. Easy to see the the bearings on the white and the sheet stops them rolling.
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Re: 58 Pages and Still No Idea on MS ID (2 star)

Postby mxmort » Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:08 pm

Thanks for the heads up 5antos
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Re: 58 Pages and Still No Idea on MS ID (2 star)

Postby Mustang » Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:34 pm

5antos wrote:Yep. When you loosen that headset a million tiny bearings are going to fall out and roll under something. Been there. I lay an old white sheet down and drop the headtube down over it before loosening. Easy to see the the bearings on the white and the sheet stops them rolling.

Go to your Supercheap store & buy one of those extendable magnets, it will be a friend :D
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Re: 58 Pages and Still No Idea on MS ID (2 star)

Postby ldrcycles » Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:34 am

5antos wrote:When you loosen that headset a million tiny bearings are going to fall out and roll under something.


+1 :x .
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Re: 58 Pages and Still No Idea on MS ID (2 star)

Postby bicyclepassion » Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:42 pm

It is good practice to replace those headset balls when you pull them apart. Go to your local bike store, 1/8" balls are about $7.00 for a packet. A lot easier than finding and cleaning all the old ones, only to find that they are no good anyway. There is a method for working on these English headsets without disrupting the balls, but too gnarly to expand on here. Just pull them apart and drop the old balls into the bin.

I will start recording the P numbers now. Two is a good start.

The 'one star' frames are generally believed to have come out in 1939.
The new serial number sequence. of the form 1P XXXX, started sometime in 1941.
So you can be pretty confident that this frame is 1939 to 1941.

The 'raygun' ATP stems with the red plastic knobs came out in about 1951, but I am pretty sure the frame is older than that. The cranks also look 1950's. Also a repaint. They are early 1970's decals. I put some on my 5 star MStar when I repainted it in 1972.

Warren
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Re: 58 Pages and Still No Idea on MS ID (2 star)

Postby mxmort » Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:39 pm

Thanks Warren for your responses and help in this thread
Is it unusual for two frames from the same factory and from around the same time to be different???
Like the bolted rear triangle on the 2 star and the welded on the 1 star
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Re: 58 Pages and Still No Idea on MS ID (2 star)

Postby 5antos » Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:30 pm

Yes. Thanks indeed. I had the cranks, stem, bars and brakes down as being original - the cranks are the Magistronis that I think were commonplace on Malvern Stars in the 50s. Stem as you say is 50's. Brakes were Philcos which are a bit vague. Rear hub and I think freewheel were early 50's. Hence my guess at the mid 50's date for the whole thing. Interesting though re: your comments about the frame age going by numbering convention. I wonder is there any reason to suspect that frames built in WA may not have adopted the same numbering system or was this one just built up again 15 odd years later?

Oh and fwiw, there's another number under the BB - P709 I think.

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Re: 58 Pages and Still No Idea on MS ID (2 star)

Postby mxmort » Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:35 pm

Alright i pulled forks out today
Cant find any stamping on headset or neck
But the forks have W then underneath there is a logo of some sort and BSA stamped underneath the logo
Hope that can help to gain more info on year etc
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