Bates Diadrant fork track frame

Vintage, yesteryear and retro biking

Bates Diadrant fork track frame

Postby dayne » Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:53 pm

Picked up a nice Little (what i believe) Bates Diadrant fork track bike last week.
These i have not seen in australia but i do like the design.

http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/bu ... bates.html
Image
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by BNA » Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:42 pm

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Re: Bates Diadrant fork track frame

Postby Torana68 » Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:42 pm

sorta looks like someone has bent the forks (as oposed to construted them that way). Doesnt look like a Melbourne Bates but does look Australian. Any other identifying features anywhere? angles a little slack for a track frame of mid fifittes, whats it look like with wheels? (27")
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Re: Bates Diadrant fork track frame

Postby dayne » Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:21 am

The link above the photo shows the english bates,
They look exactly the same to me but i should know more when it gets back from a acid bath
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Re: Bates Diadrant fork track frame

Postby freshpatents » Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:23 pm

Hi,
I'd say "definitely" an English Bates. I have one and the pencil thin stays on this one look similar to mine
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=37626
and others I've seen.
Great pick-up I'd say. If you are interested I can give you the contact details of the guy in the UK who holds the rights to the Bates name and lots of old Bates stuff, including decals, tube sets etc.
Also get onto flickr and have a look at this and other track frames
http://www.flickr.com/photos/makfreak/6 ... otostream/
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Re: Bates Diadrant fork track frame

Postby dayne » Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:21 pm

Thanks for that, Im pretty certain it is now, i pick it up from acid bath tomorrow,
Not sure what im doing with it yet, English bikes are not my area and may just sell it to fund some other builds i think.
I would love to build it up all original though.
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Re: Bates Diadrant fork track frame

Postby dayne » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:21 pm

Got the frame back from acid bath, It has a couple of small dings, but it is going to have to go as i have another project on the go,
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Re: Bates Diadrant fork track frame

Postby LG » Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:51 am

While I'm no Bates expert, I'm with Torana68, the fork looks like a home made job to me. The Bates pics I've seen have much tighter bends.
LG = Low Gear
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Re: Bates Diadrant fork track frame

Postby dayne » Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:22 am

Ill post up some more photos in the next few days of the serial numbers,
I'm now sure it's a bates, the lugs and cut outs and fork are all very bates, the fork curve looks less aggressive in the photos.
Ill put some primer on it when this rain stops.
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Re: Bates Diadrant fork track frame

Postby dubrat » Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:45 pm

Having had this in my hands I am positive it's a Bates..

Exact seat stay caps and lugset I have seen on multiple English Bates frames.. In fact I'm pretty sure it's the Volante track model.
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Re: Bates Diadrant fork track frame

Postby LG » Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:06 pm

Well the aye's have it then :lol: . Can't argue with those that have seen it in the flesh. Look forward to seeing more detailed photos when you can post them.
LG = Low Gear
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Re: Bates Diadrant fork track frame

Postby dayne » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:28 pm

so i got this primed up.
Its serial H and 2822
7000's were 1938
8000's were 1939

So im guessing 1934-35 as 34 is when the diadrant fork came in and the M could be built by H.R Morris?


Frame numbering system

The frame numbering system used by Bates does not carry any code to denote the year or month of manufacture. It is purely sequential. The larger the number, the later the frame.

Some examples of frame numbers and year of manufacture:
Frame Number Year
U8827 31 May 1938 B.A.R.
9788z 1939 Bates Ideal
010663 U 1944 or 45 B.A.R (Bates Brothers)
V1E 15977 May 1951 Vegrandis (Bates of London)
17440 E 1954 Vegrandis (one of the first built at Westcliff)
VO 17540 10 September 1954
17702 B April 1956 B.A.R (Bates of Westcliff)
17887 1958 Vegrandis

Most of the craftsmen who built the frames were racing men and, unlike many in the business, they were salaried rather than paid 'piecework', so there was no temptation to cut corners. One of these craftsmen was Stan Butler, a master frame builder who raced a Bates himself. After the war he went into partnership with Ching Allin to set up Allin cycles. Stan also built frames for the 1948 Olympic team. Another skilled frame builder at Bates was HR Morris, who later went on to build highly-regarded frames under his own name.


There are full details of several built-up Bates in Readers' Bikes
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Re: Bates Diadrant fork track frame

Postby Torana68 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:44 am

[quote="dayne"]so i got this primed up.
Its serial H and 2822
7000's were 1938
8000's were 1939 So im guessing 1934-35 as 34 is when the diadrant fork came in and the M could be built by H.R Morris?


if you have a look at the Classic Lightweights UK site (as quoted) you will see a Volant track would have VOL or VO or perhaps nothing (frame id is painfull!) there is no H prefix noted nor M (wheres the M stamped?). Im not able to see photos at work (more and better would be good the originals dont help much) but from memory the head lugs are 50's not prewar ones, the rear frame ends likewise. Pre war would be heavily chromed, I couldnt see signs of chrome anywhere but again better pickies would be good. :) How about some close up's of the head tube and lugs, front rear frame ends and seat lug?
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Re: Bates Diadrant fork track frame

Postby peterk » Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:01 pm

A picture of the forks showing curve from another frame.
Image
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Re: Bates Diadrant fork track frame

Postby Torana68 » Sat Mar 23, 2013 8:15 am

[quote="peterk"]A picture of the forks showing curve from another frame

yep they look classy not gumby, but better photos of the frame in question could change that opinion. :)
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Re: Bates Diadrant fork track frame

Postby dayne » Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:55 pm

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Re: Bates Diadrant fork track frame

Postby WyvernRH » Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:25 pm

Well the frame itself looks very 'Bates-ish'. IMHO someone has been at the headlugs with a miller and ground the 'lips' of the 'British' style headlugs back to allow the fitting of a modern 'Continental' type headset. The face of the top headlug is VERY close to the lug top surface!
Now I must admit I have never seen a track Bates, only touring models but the double curve in the forks seems very short (or maybe 'tight') compared to ones I've seen in real life. Could be this is cos it's a track frame or maybe they have been replaced with a copy made from a straight blade, possibly when the headset conversion was done? (Maybe that's why it was done?)
Are there any numbers on the fork steerer tube? Does it have a slot at the top possibly? From what you can see in the photos, the crown also looks very simple given the ornate lugwork.
Cheers
Richard
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Re: Bates Diadrant fork track frame

Postby Torana68 » Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:52 pm

whatever the frame is its nice, below is a "DELLA" no more detail known but the lugs are all similar, think Ive seen that seat stay end somewhere???? side shot of the forks to compare?

Image
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Re: Bates Diadrant fork track frame

Postby dayne » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:50 pm

Image
Thanks guys, Its a hard one too get much info on.
I will get some more shots later, the fork steerer has no markings on it
I's a shame but i was hoping to build it up but too many other projects so it's hitting the market place.
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