Vintage, yesteryear and retro biking
23 posts • Page 1 of 1
R65247R - same number on fork, which is hand-turned(?) and used to have an Italian headset. Along the way it was adapted to fit standard headset.
Last edited by Sprocket on Sat Apr 13, 2013 1:36 pm, edited 3 times in total.
not sure, but best guess is potato.
sure is a nice bike.
i'm gunna start it off by suggesting 1972 or later. zeus gran sport dropouts is a good starting point.
what were the original components?
"Original" components when I bought it about 12 years ago were:
o The shimano 600 derailleurs still on it
o Campag DT shifters
o SR Royal crank, but left crank arm was cracked at pedal end
o Weinmann 730 front brake
o Universal super 68 back brake
o Seatpost was about 3 inches long (ok bit longer ) with a cork stuck down the seat post tube and usual tapered top and old no-name but "Made in England" seat clamp
o Brooks saddle
Can't remember what the handlebar and brake levers were - they unfortunately got separated from the bike some time in the last 12 years.
Given that it has been modified from the original Italian headset at some stage of it's life I'm pretty sure that not many (if any) of the components are original - decided to standardise to the EX - which I realise is too young for it - as these were two best conditioned "original" components on it.
Last edited by Sprocket on Sat Apr 13, 2013 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'd agree with Munga as early 70s.
From what I've read, his work was changing and evolving quickly as he liked to keep up with technology.
Closest date match I could find is below, though there are some very clear differences. Especially the lugwork.
the 600ex arabesque components are from 78 on to about 84/85.
look on the back for a two-letter date code and google shimano date codes. your frame could be from a year either side, but all that really tells you is the age of the components..
perhaps someone can verify that those dropouts are no earlier than '72.
velobase says so, but that doesn't mean it's 100% correct.
seems like a few people built the frames sold under this name
might be worth trying to date from the seat tube lugwork
I hope Richard appears soon.
let me help you prepare your ebay advert, ask me how
I didnt think that arabesque had a long cage in the late 70's.
IMHO, there is defintely an age difference from the frame to the shimano 600 gear, perhaps the frame sat for a little while before the goodies where put on.
Love that aqua colour.
When in doubt......mumble.
I would say that few, if any, of the components are original. The headset was Italian, but the fork has been modified to fit a "standard" headset at some stage. And then just recently to fit a new headset we had to put in a 3mm spacer in which would correspond to the space required for the old centre-pull brakes - which it clearly doesn't have anymore.
I bought the bike in London, and planned to ride it to Paris over about 4 days - unfortunately over an unexpectedly wet summer, so the idea was canned mid-ride. The plan had been to pick up some cheap second-hand bikes in London and ditch them in Paris. Well, somehow I ended up with the Ken Ryall and fell in love with the way it rode so brought it back to Perth. And then, despite the great ride, more modern alternatives saw it get pushed to the back of the shed. I've recently dug it out and done a bit of work on it - such as getting the headset replaced. Then I started wondering about the age and hence the post.
Kermit, I love the aqua colour too! It's bruised and battered, but I'm very reluctant to repaint it.
Thanks for all the info everyone. I think the critical thing is the Zeus drop-outs. It certainly rules out one theory I had, which was that the serial number somehow indicated the year. I guess the best we can say is early 70s - and it still rides like a dream.
All I need to get my hands on to finish it off is some arabesque levers - but they are selling for crazy prices on fleabay at the moment.
This is a Ken Ryall bicycle from Ken's shop in West Feltham, Middlesex (West London), just down the road from where I used to work in the Aero/Maritime division of NPL. (Hounslow was the next suburb along and a bit flasher so I would guess that is why he had Hounslow on the badge?) I was a frequent visitor for spare parts and inner tubes in the 70's and early 80's. Originally Ken built his own bikes but later had them built to order by Holdsworth (and some others), either in batch as stock or as one offs. Specials were often done by various builders as demand required or the customer demanded. The stock and a lot of the better models often had the builders number stamped on them, not specific to Ken.
From the frame number and wrap-around stays I would guess this is a good quality 1970's/80's Holdsworth or possibly an Jack Hearne frame but that really is a guess as I have seen early Ken Ryalls with wrap-arounds, just not so 'square'.
The parts are possibly not a good guide but point at late 70's(?)
By 'Italian' headset do you mean the thread/size or the make? The Italian headset size was basically interchangeable with the 'British' size (more or less, more a function of thread profile than size/pitch)
Whatever, a nice bike.
By the by if you ever want to sell it drop me a line , I have a nostalgic ken after one of Ken's frames (pun not intended), even if he didn't use the torch.
Hi Richard - thanks for that great info!
And you called my bluff on the headset! I'm just repeating what the local frame builder here in Perth told me when he replaced the very worn headset - which wasn't the original headset. He says there is modification of the fork to show that it would have originally had an Italian headset. He pointed out some grooves just near the shoulders of the fork at the bottom of where the headset sits. I don't know any more than that about the Italian side of things.
He was very impressed with the precise fit of the fork in the frame. Said this indicated it had been hand-turned for this particular frame.
Re the ~3mm spacer I mentioned earlier, this was at the top of the headset before the final ring is tightened on. Once again going on frame-maker's info he suggested this was for original centre-pull brakes.
It was originally a 5-speed, but the back-end has been stretched to fit an 8-speed. Apparently it was quite a task as it was very stiff.
There are no attachments for bidon cages.
Very unlikely sell it - but if I change my mind I'll be sure to offer it to you first.
Digging up an old thread, but I have a answer to this so am updating. According to Hilary Stone:
"Your frame was built in 1965 at the F W Holdsworth shop in Putney by Reg Collard and was a 'Shop Special'."
Nice provenance. But it needs band on cable guides near the BB. Just sayin'
Since I keep misplacing my common sense down the shed, I guess I'll have to borrow someone elses off the internet.
Why add a band-on cable guide, it has braze-on cable stops?
Also do I get a metaphorical Brownie point for suggesting Holdsworth a few posts back
Yes Richard definitely get's a Brownie point for the Holdsworth suggestion.
The cable routing was one of the things that made me think it might be older than early 70s, but I'm a complete novice at this game so it was really just a hunch. I'm very happy to know a bit more about this bike. Now I have to decide whether to source more appropriate components for it, or to stick with what's on it. Since the OP it has arabesque brake levers, so apart from the awful wheelset it's pretty complete - just out by about 15 years.
I had faith, and you again enhanced your considerable reputation!
let me help you prepare your ebay advert, ask me how
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