3 speed IGH race bikes?

Vintage, yesteryear and retro biking

Re: 3 speed IGH race bikes?

Postby ldrcycles » Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:07 pm

find_bruce wrote:An alternative shifting mechanism is to use a sturmey archer shifter on the downtube
Image

Via mtbr. Reported to work just fine with a 3sp nexus hub. He used the lever from a thumb shifter but the downtube shifter should also work


Yea I've read that thread probably 4 times now :) , I could go with that but having looked through the bikes on Classic Lightweights (thanks a million to Clydesdale Scot for the tip on how to search that site) I reckon it will look a lot better to have the trigger next to the brake lever. Given it would have the same indexing points as the DT shifter you would hope it will work.

Thanks for that Richard, I still have the Sturmey that came with the bike which is a December 64 dated AW, it looks to be in pretty good nick. I've never worked on a Sturmey before and the tiny little threaded section frightened me off but after looking at Sheldon's article it sounds almost as simple as the Nexus. Time to compare the gearing possibilities :) .
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by BNA » Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:48 pm

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Re: 3 speed IGH race bikes?

Postby Clydesdale Scot » Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:48 pm

I have a SA AW on a frankenbike operated with a toptube mounted SA Quadrant shifter. Many times when I stop, my leg hits the exposed cable, knocking it into neutral.
It makes for an interesting acceleration from the stop.
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Re: 3 speed IGH race bikes?

Postby ldrcycles » Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:28 am

Clydesdale Scot wrote:I have a SA AW on a frankenbike operated with a toptube mounted SA Quadrant shifter. Many times when I stop, my leg hits the exposed cable, knocking it into neutral.
It makes for an interesting acceleration from the stop.


Ah definitely going for the shifter next to the brake now, that sounds like my experience with bumping a stem shifter with my knee while out of the saddle :cry: . Though at least I haven't got any scars left from that one :) .
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Re: 3 speed IGH race bikes?

Postby ldrcycles » Sun Oct 27, 2013 9:22 pm

Turns out the original Sturmey hub is 40 hole :evil: . I have another AW on hand which is the more usual 36 hole but it was made in 1979 and the accepted wisdom on the web seems to be that SA quality went to hell in the early-mid 70s. After googling that to try and get a clearer picture I came across Jobst Brandt's vehement attacks on the AW as not being able to hold top gear in a hard sprint and that made my mind up, either I use the Nexus or get a new NIG Sturmey.
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Re: 3 speed IGH race bikes?

Postby Clydesdale Scot » Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:09 am

swap the old internals into the newer shell with the right spoke hole count.
Easily done, even for a novice like me.
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Re: 3 speed IGH race bikes?

Postby ldrcycles » Tue Oct 29, 2013 8:29 pm

According to Brandt the issue is with the basic design regardless of age :? . I know this is just one person's comments but I've dropped out of top gear while out of the saddle once before (my fault, incorrectly assembled shifter + incorrect limit screw adjustment) and I REALLY want to avoid ever having that happen again, it hurt like hell. It's even got me contemplating using a 2 or 3 speed freewheel with wingnuts for manual gear changes, as much as I hate ever having to stop while riding.

I'll keep researching and thinking about that matter, but on another topic I have started work on reproducing the decals for my bike and i'm now deciding what paint scheme to go with. This is what remains of the original finish, which i'm not really keen on reproducing, particularly the ridiculous amount of pinstriping.

Image


Having looked around a bit the best I've seen so far is this one

Image

which would be a pretty easy job. I'm just curious as to what other paint jobs people really like that aren't TOO complicated?
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Re: 3 speed IGH race bikes?

Postby Clydesdale Scot » Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:14 pm

ldrcycles wrote:According to Brandt the issue is with the basic design regardless of age :? . I know this is just one person's comments but I've dropped out of top gear while out of the saddle once before (my fault, incorrectly assembled shifter + incorrect limit screw adjustment) and I REALLY want to avoid ever having that happen again, it hurt like hell.

From a quick check I have just done, you need to be in top gear and out of the saddle, standing on the pedals for 50 metres on a hill or straight line sprint.
see this thread from 2000. Later references seem to omit some or all of these prerequisites for the going hub into neutral.
I don't use my SA AW equipped bike as a racer, it is an occasional Sunday rider.
I have my plastic bike for my out of the saddle sprints or cresting hills in top gear, and it has proper gears.
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Re: 3 speed IGH race bikes?

Postby ldrcycles » Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:16 am

Bingo, that's the thread I found. I do a lot of riding out of the saddle and i'm building this bike specifically for racing on a course which will see me smashing the pedals with everything I've got. :?
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Re: 3 speed IGH race bikes?

Postby WyvernRH » Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:43 am

ldrcycles wrote:Bingo, that's the thread I found. I do a lot of riding out of the saddle and i'm building this bike specifically for racing on a course which will see me smashing the pedals with everything I've got. :?


While I greatly respect Jobst as an engineer he can and does get a bee in in his bonnet about certain things and should be read with this in mind. A long discussion back in the day about advisability of greasing crank/axle tapers comes to mind.
I have toured extensively with an AW and FW back in the 70's and while I can't claim any flat out up-hill sprints I certainly had no problems with gear slipping when it was properly adjusted. That last bit is vital, Jobst poo-poos this as an excuse but if the gear is adjusted correctly and not run in the 'half-out' position the wear does not occur. Doesn't help you with a second hand hub I know.
Re the 333 Shimano gear, although much more tolerant of poor adjustment, don't totally rely on these either if you are going to give it heaps, I have seen a couple of these fail under load, one by failing totally into neutral and the other by locking solid (very dramatic!). Both caused by poor hardening of the parts and what seemed some pretty sloppy assembly when we looked at the remains.
An older Fichtel-Sachs 3 speed might be a better second hand bet?

PS, if you are thinking of handing out that sort of welly to the bike, I would have picked a different frame to start with?

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Re: 3 speed IGH race bikes?

Postby ldrcycles » Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:30 pm

WyvernRH wrote:While I greatly respect Jobst as an engineer he can and does get a bee in in his bonnet about certain things

PS, if you are thinking of handing out that sort of welly to the bike, I would have picked a different frame to start with?


Yes I had already come to that conclusion, from what I have read he seems to be rather like me, holding a few VERY passionate and decidedly unusual preferences :) . I see you mentioned 333 Shimano hubs, reading SB's page on Shimano hubs they were apparently poor quality and not comparable to the much newer Nexus hubs, which is what I have. Or were the failures you described on Nexus hubs?

With exactly 1 month until the race I am building the bike for, and with my growing uncertainty over the IGHs i'm leaning more towards using the flip flop wheelset off my Tom Wallace and changing gears the hard way.

As for the frame, ideally I would have picked something different too, but it was free and beggars can't be choosers :) . Importantly it fits me quite well and rides nicely as a fixed gear, I think it will do a good job.
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Re: 3 speed IGH race bikes?

Postby WyvernRH » Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:27 pm

ldrcycles wrote: . I see you mentioned 333 Shimano hubs, reading SB's page on Shimano hubs they were apparently poor quality and not comparable to the much newer Nexus hubs, which is what I have. Or were the failures you described on Nexus hubs?

Ah my bad, the failures were on 333 hubs not Nexus.
As we were talking period stuff I got confuzzed as Nexus didn't appear til the 90's IIRC?
No experience with them except setting up an 8-speed on a Moulton which( as I haven't seen it again) must be working well :wink:
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Re: 3 speed IGH race bikes?

Postby ldrcycles » Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:54 pm

The Nexus I have on hand is dated 2004, so not retro or period at all :) . Where the 8 and 11 speed hubs have a big Q shaped thing on the side the 3 speeds have a "bellcrank" with a little window with 2 lines on it, adjust the pushrod to be between those lines in 2nd gear and you're away, it's an absolute doddle. So far the only problems I've been able to find reported for the Nexus 3 are a couple of instances of the hub not wanting to shift into 1st, which wouldn't really bother me much :lol: .
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Re: 3 speed IGH race bikes?

Postby ldrcycles » Sat Nov 30, 2013 10:59 pm

Well now she's almost finished it's time for me to show off my 3 speed race bike :) .


Image



Still needs the decals to be done properly, twine on the bar tape and the shifter bolted on (the standard one wouldn't fit once the bar tape was on), but still did a beautiful job on her maiden race.

I will need to do some research/experimenting though, as while the Sturmey-Archer shifter is workable with the Nexus, it's far from ideal. With the 2nd gear set up correctly, 1st has the cable completely slack and flapping in the breeze, while 3rd is a bit too tight to hold properly. The problem is that the steps in the shifter (1st to 2nd is short, 2nd to 3rd is long) are the opposite to the hub. It still shifted and pedalled exceptionally well, and I really enjoyed that glorious rolling click of the idle gears while pedalling in top :D .
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