Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

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Thoglette
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby Thoglette » Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:15 pm

Thoglette wrote:Pretty.

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(Dialing it in with Dani Windhausen)
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owly
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby owly » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:36 pm

If you purchase an LB2 frameset through the .au site, they ship from Syd.
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby singlespeedscott » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:25 pm

Finally got my latest copy of Bicycle Quarterly. The review of the MASI randonneur was very positive. To bad you can’t get it in OZ.
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby Thoglette » Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:30 pm

singlespeedscott wrote:To[o] bad you can’t get it in OZ.

You might need to swum over the dutch to Un Zud where there's a distributor. From here, Singapore is closer (lah) :D
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby singlespeedscott » Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:03 pm

If you can get it in Singas I might be able to get little bro to pick one up.
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby savvas » Thu May 03, 2018 6:55 am

Has anyone found a proper experience-based review of the XSogn please?
ta,
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby singlespeedscott » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:31 am

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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby owly » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:57 am

singlespeedscott wrote:How cool is this 8) -

http://www.northercycles.com/jeff-lyon-colaboration/


Been watching that; waiting for some frame numbers to appear. Very light frameset that 56.
Was hoping they'd list a red frame colour option.
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby 10speedsemiracer » Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:18 am

singlespeedscott wrote:How cool is this 8) -

http://www.northercycles.com/jeff-lyon-colaboration/


Beautifully made. Could make a very tasty mid-long distance commuter out of one of these..
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Thoglette
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Surly Midnight Special

Postby Thoglette » Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:45 pm

Been out since Feb but I've not found it in this thread.

Flat mount discs, 12mm through axles 142mm spacing at the back, space for 60mm tyres w/out mudguards and "road" geometry. Surly are claiming 23lb or 10.5kg. 44mm head set, 68mm BB. CroMo double butted main triangle. Interesting mix of old and new.

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US pricing is "Complete bikes retail for $1799 with the frame at $625" (biketimesmag) Similar story at BikeRadar whjo note that UK and AUD prices remain to be confirmed

Lots of .au Surly dealers, so has anyone seen one yet?
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby singlespeedscott » Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:54 am

I’m interested to see what the Bicycle Quarterly review will be like.

I suspect they’ll probably hate it because it doesn’t “plane” :lol:
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby singlespeedscott » Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:06 pm

Righto, I have finally scored myself a worthy frame of converting to 650b. Yay :)

It’s a nice 1987-88 Raleigh Royal.

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The frame is a 25" made from Reynolds 531 Special Tourist, not the heavy duty Super Tourist tubeset. Special tourist is the same as normal 531 but uses a slightly thicker gauge downtube and chainstays. Exactly where you want the stiffness in such a large frame.

With this frame I’ll get the French fit look I’m after with the lugged standard size tubing and a level top tube.

Being a touring/audax frame, I’ve calculated it’s trail will be 52mm with 40mm 650b tyres, mid range which is fine with me. I’ve still yet to try the low trail thing and haven’t experienced handling issues with a handlebar bag on normal trail bikes.

The frame is designed for 700c wheels with 28mm tyres. Brakes are cantilever. Unfortunately the mudguard mounts are pretty poorly designed on the rear.

The plan is to find a frame builder that can relocate the cantilever mounts for 650b wheels and setup the rear end for properly mounted mudguards.

I’m open to suggestions as to who might be a good choice for these modifications.
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby 10speedsemiracer » Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:24 pm

singlespeedscott wrote:Righto, I have finally scored myself a worthy frame of converting to 650b. Yay :)

It’s a nice 1987-88 Raleigh Royal.

Image

Image

The frame is a 25" made from Reynolds 531 Special Tourist, not the heavy duty Super Tourist tubeset. Special tourist is the same as normal 531 but uses a slightly thicker gauge downtube and chainstays. Exactly where you want the stiffness in such a large frame.

With this frame I’ll get the French fit look I’m after with the lugged standard size tubing and a level top tube.

Being a touring/audax frame, I’ve calculated it’s trail will be 52mm with 40mm 650b tyres, mid range which is fine with me. I’ve still yet to try the low trail thing and haven’t experienced handling issues with a handlebar bag on normal trail bikes.

The frame is designed for 700c wheels with 28mm tyres. Brakes are cantilever. Unfortunately the mudguard mounts are pretty poorly designed on the rear.

The plan is to find a frame builder that can relocate the cantilever mounts for 650b wheels and setup the rear end for properly mounted mudguards.

I’m open to suggestions as to who might be a good choice for these modifications.


Tasty. I do love a Raleigh. You do know that now we know this is going on, we expect progress pics.......
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby singlespeedscott » Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:40 pm

There will be some but it will be a very slow process.
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby Thoglette » Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:16 pm

singlespeedscott wrote:The plan is to find a frame builder that can relocate the cantilever mounts for 650b wheels and setup the rear end for properly mounted mudguards.


If you're going to all that trouble, you might consider centre-pull mounts rather than cantis. I'm about to* swap the front fork on my canti-equipped commuter to see whether they're worth the effort

* about to (adj.)
1. euphemism for somewhere in the possible future, maybe, once everything else is done and I have some time.
See also round tuit and "just now" (S. Africa)
Last edited by Thoglette on Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby baabaa » Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:17 pm

singlespeedscott wrote:Righto, I have finally scored myself a worthy frame of converting to 650b. Yay :)

I’m open to suggestions as to who might be a good choice for these modifications.


Why mod the frame ( and cut/remove/ filedown then re-braze new bosses and then repaint )when you could just go some of these...https://www.paulcomp.com/shop/components/motolite/
Would have to be cheaper and besides you could then still use both 650B and 700c wheelsets.
But my question is if it is a xl 25 inch frame why go 650B and not just stay with 700C? I would guess most of what 650B does in a small frame size is lost on an xl frame. If you after more tyre width, I would guess you can find plenty of new to market supple tyres now that will give you more or less the same as 650B? If you just want a hobby then I will shut up and agree it will be a fun project.

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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby Thoglette » Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:23 pm

baabaa wrote: I would guess most of what 650B does in a small frame size is lost on an xl frame.

650B Retrofitting Benefits -- Racer to Tourer
Sheldon Brown wrote:Does it make sense to change wheel size on an existing bike? Sometimes it may.

If you have a racing-type bike of good quality, but wish to make it more versatile, sturdy and comfortable, converting to 650B may be just the ticket.

Newer racing bikes tend to have exceptionally tight tire clearance. Some of them can't even accommodate a tire wider than about 25 mm, and forget about installing fenders with any size tire!

By switching to 650B from 700C, you suddenly gave clearance enough for medium-width tires, say 35-38 mm width, and for fenders, so you don't need to be a "fair-weather" cyclist.

The wider tires will be more durable, more "sure-footed", and give a more comfortable ride on rough pavement or under moderate off-road conditions. Switching to 650B can also reduce front wheel/toe overlap issues.

Switching to 650B will lower the bottom bracket a bit, making for easier mounting/dismounting. (Many newer bikes have excessively high bottom brackets to begin with.)

It also lowers the top tube, possibly making a bike safely usable for a shorter rider than would otherwise fit it, due to lack of standover clearance.

If you are going from a very narrow 622 (700C) tire to a fairly wide 584 (650B), the difference may be minimal. For instance, a 19-622 (700 x 19C) tire would theoretically have exactly the same outside diameter as a 38-584 (650 x 38B).

I do like the adjustable cantis. I guess they are "long pull" and moving from 622 to 584 will exacerbate that.
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby singlespeedscott » Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:48 pm

baabaa wrote:
singlespeedscott wrote:Righto, I have finally scored myself a worthy frame of converting to 650b. Yay :)

I’m open to suggestions as to who might be a good choice for these modifications.


Why mod the frame ( and cut/remove/ filedown then re-braze new bosses and then repaint )when you could just go some of these...https://www.paulcomp.com/shop/components/motolite/
Would have to be cheaper and besides you could then still use both 650B and 700c wheelsets.
But my question is if it is a xl 25 inch frame why go 650B and not just stay with 700C? I would guess most of what 650B does in a small frame size is lost on an xl frame. If you after more tyre width, I would guess you can find plenty of new to market supple tyres now that will give you more or less the same as 650B? If you just want a hobby then I will shut up and agree it will be a fun project.


To start with the motolites would not reach down to a 650b rim with the canti studs setup for 700c.

The frame was originally intended for 28 mm tyres. With the 30mm tyres I currently use, the clearances are minimal. 650b will allow me to move to 40 mm tyres for improved comfort. This bike will also see some dirt road riding at night. In the dark the 40 mm tyres will give me a little more margin for error when it comes to miss identification of trail conditions at speed.

My other goal is to go tubeless to reduce the incidence of punctures on my commute. I don't want to resort to some horrible rolling, heavy duty tyres. From my online investigations the consensus is that it is inadvisable to run tubeless tyres with pressures greater than 60 psi. I really cant get away with this low a pressure with my current 30mm tyres.
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby Thoglette » Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:28 pm

singlespeedscott wrote:To start with the motolites would not reach down to a 650b rim with the canti studs setup for 700c.


Mine standard Shimano vintage cantis are close to doing 650B wheels and they're currently set up for 27" (630). But it'd take a silly angle of the brake pad (my cantis use traditional brake pads with unthreaded shafts, like the Kool Stop Eagle Claw which provide even more ways to maladjust the brakes).

One would need to check the motolite measurements carefully !
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Re: Surly Midnight Special

Postby Bendo » Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:33 pm

Thoglette wrote:Been out since Feb but I've not found it in this thread.

Flat mount discs, 12mm through axles 142mm spacing at the back, space for 60mm tyres w/out mudguards and "road" geometry. Surly are claiming 23lb or 10.5kg. 44mm head set, 68mm BB. CroMo double butted main triangle. Interesting mix of old and new.

Image

US pricing is "Complete bikes retail for $1799 with the frame at $625" (biketimesmag) Similar story at BikeRadar whjo note that UK and AUD prices remain to be confirmed

Lots of .au Surly dealers, so has anyone seen one yet?


This above was a while ago now so my post might be old news, but https://commutercycles.com.au/shop/surly-midnight-special/ says just under $3000. It doesn't say built up but I assume it must be. b

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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby ChrisCrash » Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:40 pm

I took one of these for a test ride and liked it a lot. That said, I've also owned two Cross Checks and a Karate Monkey, and 3 All City bikes - I guess I'm a sucker for QBP (Quality Bike Parts) who make both. Steel is real and all that. I'm also a yank so I'm accustomed to being able to pick theses up pretty cheap. The Midnight Special has a pretty nice ride and decent parts - Rival 22 definitely gets the job done and the steel and fat tires give a pretty cush ride. I really can't fault it other than its weight, but if you're counting grams and watts and shaving your man legs then this isn't going to appeal to you anyway.
You are correct, the price is for the complete bike. But here's what gets me on these - I was quoted $2,700 for what I know is a $1,700 bike in the US. Of course with the current exchange rate, I guess that's not too bad, but still, $2700 for a basic cro moly frame with a steerer tube that looks like a beer can? No thanks. I bought a Cosmic Stallion instead and got a real can of their beer and a proper tapered steerer tube when I bought the bike. No shiz, a real Cosmic Stallion beer. And that sealed the deal for me. You can get that bike here too and it will take 650x47's but it comes with 700cx42. After riding the 42's - WTB's set up tubeless, in a lot of varied conditions I'm pretty pleased with myself on my choice. Takes 3 bottle cages and has eyelets for fenders (yankspeak for mudguards) About $1000 more, but worth it to me.

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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby Thoglette » Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:30 am

ChrisCrash wrote:About $1000 more, but worth it to me.

At that price point you're into entry-level Rivendell pricing (Clem $1650USD, Hillborne $2100 USD etc) or a complete set of parts from VeloOrange (if one must have discs)
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby wqlava1 » Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:06 pm

ChrisCrash wrote: I bought a Cosmic Stallion instead
You can get that bike here too and it will take 650x47's but it comes with 700cx42. After riding the 42's - WTB's set up tubeless, in a lot of varied conditions I'm pretty pleased with myself on my choice.

You'll get another significant change for the better in ride experience when you try the 650x47b tyres - you lose about 6% in circumference of the tyre but gain almost a third in cross sectional area, for an overall about a quarter more volume. And with volume, you can let the pressure down, and you can then let some supple tyres work for you (and low pressures are where they can be best appreciated).

baabaa wrote:But my question is if it is a xl 25 inch frame why go 650B and not just stay with 700C? I would guess most of what 650B does in a small frame size is lost on an xl frame. If you after more tyre width, I would guess you can find plenty of new to market supple tyres now that will give you more or less the same as 650B?


SSS uses about the same size frame as me, and thus I would predict is both taller and possibly a little heavier than "average". (Pardon me mate if I'm wrong!) But my experience is that to get what 650B does in a small frame he needs more volume than the probably lighter rider on the small frame, thus needs the greatest possible tyre width. Going to a larger rim diameter is a really poor way to get more volume - it's much easier with a few mm extra tyre width and minimizing unused clearance in the stays and fork.

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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby singlespeedscott » Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:04 pm

I’m 178cm but have very long legs. Weight is 76-78kg. I can get more volume from a 650b tyre for a given frame size than 700c. With a supple tyre I’ll get no loss in speed with more comfort, wet weather grip, dirt roadability and the ability to run tubeless to reduce punctures on my commute. That and the fact I love the look :)
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby wqlava1 » Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:42 pm

Then SSS you’ll get a great compliant ride at 40mm. At around 100kg I found BSPs to be still needing to be fairly hard but SBHs gave the ride that seemed to be described by those who rhapsodized over BSPs.

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