Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

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Rob74
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby Rob74 » Thu Jan 30, 2014 4:25 pm

Noticed the 2014 Surly Stralggler?
It comes in a 64cm frame

RE my previous post Wed Dec 04, 2013 8:40 pm =>> reply from importer to my enquiry was "Jamis Bosanova bike weight in a 61cm XXL with racks, pedals and guards is 13.3kg".

SSS what are you defining as light weight?
U sure U want 650B? What is your reasoning?.....or are you thinking that by converting a std 700c bike by fitting 650B you get the fork trail you desire for a front loaded handle bar bag?


Rob

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singlespeedscott
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby singlespeedscott » Thu Jan 30, 2014 10:15 pm

Rob74 wrote:Noticed the 2014 Surly Stralggler?
It comes in a 64cm frame

RE my previous post Wed Dec 04, 2013 8:40 pm =>> reply from importer to my enquiry was "Jamis Bosanova bike weight in a 61cm XXL with racks, pedals and guards is 13.3kg".

SSS what are you defining as light weight?
U sure U want 650B? What is your reasoning?.....or are you thinking that by converting a std 700c bike by fitting 650B you get the fork trail you desire for a front loaded handle bar bag?


Rob


Rob I have ridden bikes on the road with tyres up to 35mm, plus my 29er with 2.3" knobbies. I have found anything larger than a 32mm feels like a tractor tyre when it comes to climbing up hills and tight descents. A 650B with 38-42mm tyres has a smaller circumference, similar to a 700c with 23mm tyres, it should roll just as fast, provide more comfort on the crappy back roads I want to ride, and turn in better then a fat tyred 700c rim. Low trial geometry will complement the handling with wider tyres as well as allow me to run a handlebar bag.

This is all theory though and it could prove to be a load of bollocks. Building a cheapish bike that ticks the boxes will at least allow me to try it out without costing the earth and I wont be to out of pocket if I find I don't like it.
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby spirito » Thu Jan 30, 2014 10:59 pm

singlespeedscott wrote:If I was going French it would be an Alex Singer.



You say that but I suspect you'd shrivel up like a vampire when you see the price tag :P :lol:
Cranky Jim wrote: God did not invent gears. Men invented gears ... because we are not gods.

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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby singlespeedscott » Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:06 am

spirito wrote:
singlespeedscott wrote:If I was going French it would be an Alex Singer.



You say that but I suspect you'd shrivel up like a vampire when you see the price tag :P :lol:
Most certainly.

If your going to dream there's no point in dreaming small :P
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby singlespeedscott » Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:09 pm

Rob has got me thinking about the 650B wheel conversion. I'll need to do some measurments on my bike to see if it will work. I think the biggest issue will be the bottom bracket drop, particularly with the 175mm cranks.

Has anyone on here done a 27" to 650B conversion?
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby Blakeylonger » Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:46 pm

singlespeedscott wrote:Has anyone on here done a 27" to 650B conversion?


Are you insane. There are some good classic road frames that convert OK, but generally only fit 32mm tyres, which means you miss out on the best part of 650b, Hetres.

I've converted 700d to 650b x 42, canti/u brake, drop bar rando then flat bar, both setups worked well as the erd and intended tyre width was very close.

700c lightweight to 650b x 32, long reach dual pivots, flat bar. BB is a bit low but works well as a townie. Hetres going in once 32s wear out.

700c os 853 / carbon to 650b x 32 long reach centre pull, drop bar allroader, handling wasn't great, bb was too low.

The brake reach on a 27" frame will be far too long, and the fork rake / head angle is more than likely nothing like a low trail rando and even assuming you use / can fit 42s, the bb is probably too low too. In short, it won't tell you anything about what a low trail, lightweight tubed, 650b bike is like. It's like buying a hilux and painting it red to get an idea of what a Ferrari is like.

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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby wqlava1 » Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:17 am

singlespeedscott wrote:Rob has got me thinking about the 650B wheel conversion. I'll need to do some measurements on my bike to see if it will work. I think the biggest issue will be the bottom bracket drop, particularly with the 175mm cranks.

Has anyone on here done a 27" to 650B conversion?


Have a look at this link:
http://www.bikeman.com/bikeman-blogs/65 ... -guidlines
They are the only numerical suggestions I have seen. He doesn't mention converting 27" though - probably the brake reach problem.

Despite what Blakey says (and I laughed and sort of agreed about the Hilux), I had thought of putting a low trail canti 650B fork if available on a 27" frame I use fixed with 700C wheels currently, and only a front brake.

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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby singlespeedscott » Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:21 am

Blakeylonger wrote:
singlespeedscott wrote:Has anyone on here done a 27" to 650B conversion?


Are you insane. There are some good classic road frames that convert OK, but generally only fit 32mm tyres, which means you miss out on the best part of 650b, Hetres.

I've converted 700d to 650b x 42, canti/u brake, drop bar rando then flat bar, both setups worked well as the erd and intended tyre width was very close.

700c lightweight to 650b x 32, long reach dual pivots, flat bar. BB is a bit low but works well as a townie. Hetres going in once 32s wear out.

700c os 853 / carbon to 650b x 32 long reach centre pull, drop bar allroader, handling wasn't great, bb was too low.

The brake reach on a 27" frame will be far too long, and the fork rake / head angle is more than likely nothing like a low trail rando and even assuming you use / can fit 42s, the bb is probably too low too. In short, it won't tell you anything about what a low trail, lightweight tubed, 650b bike is like. It's like buying a hilux and painting it red to get an idea of what a Ferrari is like.

Just an idea.

I am currently at work so I cant do any measurements, but there is a lot of room between the rear stays and the brake bridge as well as under the fork crown. I reckon I would have no problem getting 38mm tyres on a 650B rim to fit in there. Brakes are not a problem. A set of Dia comp 750's would easily reach the rims.

My concern is that by my rough calculation the bottom bracket will be approx 12mm lower.

Interestingly though is I think the trail will be reduced by about 4-5mm.
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby grantw » Sat Feb 01, 2014 7:03 am

Just back from waving off a couple of guys on a brevet and one of them was riding a Grand Bois 650b rando with all the fruit, hammered honjos, extra leger tyres, bethould handlebar bag and those really cool bidon cages made of impossibly thin stainless steel.

It was impressively light and I'm kicking myself now that I didn't take a photo.
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby singlespeedscott » Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:18 pm

Here let me help you Grant :D
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby Espresso_ » Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:04 pm

I think I've gone through the same process as you, Scott, although I also wanted discs!

At the min my plan is to build up a 650b Soma Double Cross.

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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby wqlava1 » Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:36 am

Espresso_ wrote:
At the min my plan is to build up a 650b Soma Double Cross.

But the Double Cross has its brake pivots at the right height for 700C.

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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby Espresso_ » Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:45 am

wqlava1 wrote:But the Double Cross has its brake pivots at the right height for 700C.


I should have been clearer. I'm planning to build a Double Cross Disc.

E

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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby singlespeedscott » Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:19 am

Espresso_ wrote:
wqlava1 wrote:But the Double Cross has its brake pivots at the right height for 700C.


I should have been clearer. I'm planning to build a Double Cross Disc.

E

By my calculations, running 650B wheels with 42mm tyres is going to give the Double Cross a trail of 60mm. This is is a very slight reduction from the 63mm with standard 32mm cross tyres. I would imagine that this amount of trail should be super stable at speed on the dirt. It should be a nice combo.
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Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby Espresso_ » Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:14 pm

Sounds positive ... I'm not envisaging lots of dirt riding, just a bit here and there.

I don't know enough about geometry and trail in particular. What do you think that setup would be like in normal road riding conditions?

And any thoughts of the effect of a small front load on a small porteur rack out front?

E

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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby wqlava1 » Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:34 pm

Espresso_ wrote:Sounds positive ... I'm not envisaging lots of dirt riding, just a bit here and there.

I don't know enough about geometry and trail in particular. What do you think that setup would be like in normal road riding conditions?

And any thoughts of the effect of a small front load on a small porteur rack out front?

E


If it's just a bar bag with 2-3kg up between the drops of your bars like I have on a bike with similar geometry to what you are looking at, not much effect. The further out from the axis of the steerer, the more effect I suppose.

If you want to change to low trail forks after trying with the 60mm trail, 2 are in the offing - Evan Baird at Soma has some 1 1/8" unthreaded 700C forks coming in a couple of months, and Sean of Rawland is possibly soon doing a 1" unthreaded 650B Stag upgrade fork. Both with cantis.

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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby Espresso_ » Thu Feb 27, 2014 6:50 pm

Canti's ....

What amount of trail would be considered "low trail"?

E

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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby wqlava1 » Thu Feb 27, 2014 6:56 pm

Espresso_ wrote:Canti's ....

What amount of trail would be considered "low trail"?

E


Somewhere in the low 30s mm to mid 40s. Around 50mm I have seen referred to as mid-trail.

Use this calculator when you see fork rake and head tube angle figures
http://yojimg.net/bike/web_tools/trailcalc.php

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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby wqlava1 » Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:27 pm

Are there actually very many of you out there with existing or planned 650B randonneur-type bikes? I suppose that the early part of this thread's discussion crystallized some of my thinking and got me moving, and if it all keeps moving I'll be assembling the bike at the start of June.

Also, are there many trying out low trail, wide compliant tyres or 650B conversions? Enough in any of those areas to start another thread and avoid changing this one?

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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby Espresso_ » Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:06 pm

I'm planning a wide tyre 650b bike right now.

My interest is in modern components (eg brifters and disc brakes) so I'm having to look at other ways of meeting my needs as the mass produced randonneurs aren't ideally set up for this.

As such, I'm planning to "convert" a mass produced but new 700c frame to meet my needs.

Happy for this thread to continue on though.

E

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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby singlespeedscott » Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:52 pm

I've been thinking the same thing in regards to hydraulic disc brakes. I think they are the future but there is little around in regards to disc brake, low trail, 650b randonneur bikes
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby Blakeylonger » Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:17 am

singlespeedscott wrote:I've been thinking the same thing in regards to hydraulic disc brakes. I think they are the future but there is little around in regards to disc brake, low trail, 650b randonneur bikes


Blakeylonger wrote:Image

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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby wqlava1 » Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:46 pm

Blakeylonger wrote:
singlespeedscott wrote:I've been thinking the same thing in regards to hydraulic disc brakes. I think they are the future but there is little around in regards to disc brake, low trail, 650b randonneur bikes


Blakeylonger wrote:Image



Blakey, I can't claim to be a big fan of the pink, but please satisfy our collective interest about the bike in the photo. If it's yours, to what extent does the need to have sufficiently strong left side fork leg and rear stays to hold the caliper compromise the weight and ride feel?

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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby Blakeylonger » Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:59 pm

Not mine. Friend in Seattle. If you don't like that housing / tape you'll hate the final paint job.

Blades: (both sides) http://www.cycle-frames.com/bicycle-fra ... L_0.9.html
with a Willits style tab.

But there's more flex in the upper blades / crown anyway, unless you taper those blades down to ridiculous levels.

Anyway, the info you want on the elephant is here.
http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f7 ... 33054.html

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Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby singlespeedscott » Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:55 pm

It must be a balance act to get ride characteristic right whilst maintaining strength in the fork.

Are you going to get an Elephant, Blakey?
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