Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Espresso_
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Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby Espresso_ » Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:27 pm

singlespeedscott wrote:It must be a balance act to get ride characteristic right whilst maintaining strength in the fork.

Are you going to get an Elephant, Blakey?


I was thinking about an Elephant after seeing this bike around on the web.

Roughly USD1600+shipping (including paint!!) for the frame and fork if anyone is interested.

Too much for me, but much cheaper than many of the other custom alternatives.

E

Blakeylonger
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby Blakeylonger » Sat Apr 12, 2014 2:50 pm

wqlava1 wrote:Blakey, I can't claim to be a big fan of the pink,


Image

Image

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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby wqlava1 » Sat Apr 12, 2014 3:10 pm

Not much left in the end. Most of the colour scheme inspiration looks like it comes from Holstein Friesians or Gateway PCs. That's quite nice really.

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singlespeedscott
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby singlespeedscott » Sat Apr 12, 2014 3:57 pm

Blakeylonger wrote:Image

Actually don't mind that build. With a different paint job and a level top tube.
Image

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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby Espresso_ » Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:30 am

Espresso_ wrote:
I should have been clearer. I'm planning to build a Double Cross Disc.

E


It's not low trail, and it's not even a Rando, but it is 650B. Here it is:

Image

It's been featured on the Soma blog:

http://somafab.blogspot.com/2014/06/jas ... m.html?m=1

E

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singlespeedscott
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby singlespeedscott » Sat Jun 14, 2014 12:11 pm

Very nice.
Image

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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby wqlava1 » Sat Jun 28, 2014 8:58 am

For those interested in a low trail 650B fork in 1" unthreaded, they are being offered for sale by Jeff Lyon, a framebuilder in Oregon, for USD120 plus shipping.
http://www.lyonsport.com/
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic ... UqJsA11les

Having canti studs means the front braking problem is also solved in a 700C-based conversion frame, but rear may have to be long drop calipers or some other solution. I've almost got my Stag finished, so unlikely to do this but someone may want to do this alone or as a bit of a group buy.

The Rawland version of this was a couple of weeks ago delayed but still planned. A couple of months ago Soma was still also planning their 700C low trail fork for about this time of year - that is one I'd still like to try out.

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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby wqlava1 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:32 pm

And for those looking to try low trail of the 700C variety, Merry Sales in the US (whose main brand is Soma) also have this with space for 41mm rear tyre:
http://newalbioncycles.com/privateer1/
and Soma has just got the Champs Elysees low trail 700C forks with 65mm rake to suit in canti or 57mm drop caliper versions. I've asked the Aust importer about price, as they look pretty affordable in the US. The frame is .9/.6/.9 butted CrMo - not super light but a good big step above high tensile. This is the only non-custom source of low trail 700c forks I know of at the moment.

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singlespeedscott
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby singlespeedscott » Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:23 pm

Not bad. Why do they think that bikes need a sloping top tube? Not so sure on the steerer tube extension either. Horizontal drop outs really are not necessary in this age of double sprung, slant parallel rear derailleurs.
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby wqlava1 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:45 pm

singlespeedscott wrote:Not bad. Why do they think that bikes need a sloping top tube? Not so sure on the steerer tube extension either. Horizontal drop outs really are not necessary in this age of double sprung, slant parallel rear derailleurs.


I'm with you a bit on the top tube. I tend to like my bars a bit higher these days so the little bit extra of steerer tube saves most of the spacers. For derailleurs, you're right, but I have interest in the frame in order to shift my 700C fixie wheels with Compass 38mm tyres over to something with the right geometry for low trail. Dunno also why you'd want to use these horizontal dropouts for an IGH - i think its easier to change the rear wheel with sliding vertical dropouts.

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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby satanas » Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:08 pm

I'm also interested in this topic, and have a bike I'd like to convert, but no 1" forks out there (except expensive custom from O/S). Unfortunately, the Soma conversion forks are both 1 1/8" and very long A-C, which means they won't fit anything I'd want to use them on. FWIW, Singular in the UK offer a 1" steerer fork with 60mm rake, which might do the job on some bikes: http://www.singularcycles.com/shop/inde ... -fork.html

Very tempted to buy a Soma GR, and don't mind a slightly compact frame - the 55cm could be made to fit okay, but not so sure about some of the details. Strangely enough, the biggest problem with having a frame built seems to be finding a suitable fork bender here in Oz - any suggestions welcome!

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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby wqlava1 » Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:02 pm

satanas wrote:I'm also interested in this topic, and have a bike I'd like to convert, but no 1" forks out there (except expensive custom from O/S). Unfortunately, the Soma conversion forks are both 1 1/8" and very long A-C, which means they won't fit anything I'd want to use them on. FWIW, Singular in the UK offer a 1" steerer fork with 60mm rake, which might do the job on some bikes: http://www.singularcycles.com/shop/inde ... -fork.html

Very tempted to buy a Soma GR, and don't mind a slightly compact frame - the 55cm could be made to fit okay, but not so sure about some of the details. Strangely enough, the biggest problem with having a frame built seems to be finding a suitable fork bender here in Oz - any suggestions welcome!

The Singular Osprey is only specified for 28mm tyres with mudguards - not sure if 700x38c or 650x42b would fit.

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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby Espresso_ » Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:43 pm

satanas wrote:Unfortunately, the Soma conversion forks are both 1 1/8" and very long A-C, which means they won't fit anything I'd want to use them on.

Very tempted to buy a Soma GR, and don't mind a slightly compact frame - the 55cm could be made to fit okay, but not so sure about some of the details.


What details are the problem?

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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby Blakeylonger » Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:02 pm

If you're in the market and you don't jump on this preorder, you're a damned fool.

http://www.elephantbikes.com/blog/2014/ ... oject.html

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Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby Espresso_ » Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:10 pm

Blakeylonger wrote:If you're in the market and you don't jump on this preorder, you're a damned fool.

http://www.elephantbikes.com/blog/2014/ ... oject.html


Mmm, agree. Looks tasty. Still pricey though, even though it's not custom.

E

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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby LugNut » Fri Sep 19, 2014 4:48 pm

Blakeylonger wrote:If you're in the market and you don't jump on this preorder, you're a damned fool.

http://www.elephantbikes.com/blog/2014/ ... oject.html


:!: Thanks for the sleepless night. :wink:

I cancelled on a Rawland Stag order last year thinking that the shipping cost would be huge, then kicked myself for months, especially when I saw Alex's on a gravel grinders ride and found out it shipped for $100.

I really liked the Elephant you posted earlier, the mono stay is gorgeous, and I've warmed to the idea of discs. Also the possibility of fitting 2.1s helps me to justify flogging my mtb for the deposit.

I think I'm in!

(Anyone wanna buy a mountain bike...? Or a tandem?...)

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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby wqlava1 » Fri Sep 19, 2014 5:00 pm

And where is that $100 shipping available? Shipping cost on bike and even frame boxes from the US is way more than that unless the sender has a god account with one of the big courier companies in my experience. That cost has shaped my frame purchasing decisions, and led to a lot of work in persuading vendors to pack frames as small as possible. Dunno if Elephant ships that much - they look lower volume than Rawland. When/if the lightweight Stag 1 forks become available i will be more interested now, in the hope that Rawland freight is reasonable. At the length of a fork with an uncut long steerer, USPS postage was looking pretty high when i idly looked.

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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby LugNut » Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:25 pm

wqlava1 wrote:And where is that $100 shipping available? Shipping cost on bike and even frame boxes from the US is way more than that unless the sender has a god account with one of the big courier companies in my experience. That cost has shaped my frame purchasing decisions, and led to a lot of work in persuading vendors to pack frames as small as possible. Dunno if Elephant ships that much - they look lower volume than Rawland. When/if the lightweight Stag 1 forks become available i will be more interested now, in the hope that Rawland freight is reasonable. At the length of a fork with an uncut long steerer, USPS postage was looking pretty high when i idly looked.


I cancelled my order thinking the same thing (quotes of >$500) and ended up regretting it. Didn't ask how they managed it, (wish I had!) and you're right, it probably wont be the same, but in hindsight I know I would've preferred to pay through the nose anyway. It would've been better than burying roughly the same into a too small but near enough 700c frame (with issues) that I'm yet to find comfortable.

Personally, this sounds like just the bike I want at an as-low-as-is-realistically-possible price, expensive shipping or not. There's always more bicycle collateral to burn.

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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby LugNut » Fri Sep 19, 2014 10:10 pm

You know what, I'm going to have a chat to a local builder first. There's certainly better value putting the money into the bike, and getting something that will fit me better (long legs, short torso) instead of into the shipping. I'm glad the Elephant finally got the ball rolling and I will be looking to it for inspiration. Awesome bike.

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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby wqlava1 » Wed Sep 24, 2014 10:07 pm

LugNut wrote:You know what, I'm going to have a chat to a local builder first. There's certainly better value putting the money into the bike, and getting something that will fit me better (long legs, short torso) instead of into the shipping. I'm glad the Elephant finally got the ball rolling and I will be looking to it for inspiration. Awesome bike.


Check out Velosmith whilst you're on that path. Tim has been building low trail 700C bikes for some time. I just happened to look at the geometry diagram for mine tonight, and saw it was 34.4mm trail. That's a Rohloff tourer frame he built fo me in late 2011. Not interested in frame geometry then nearly as much as now, i just asked him to build a frame something of a blend of his Cyclotouriste and Great Southern models, with Rohloff dropouts. i answered all the sizing questions as well as whether I planned to carry luggage in his questionnaire, and he designed it. I've liked its handling, but the Rohloff hub tradeoff of extra weight at the end of the bike in exchange for convenient shifting, even gear spacing and high reliability is not quite what Scott was looking for as he started this thread.

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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby singlespeedscott » Wed Sep 24, 2014 10:56 pm

Do you have a picture of your Velosmith? I have been thinking that a low trail 700c bike may work. Of late I have done a few rides involving steep, dirt roads on my Geoff Scott shod with the trusty Parigi Roubaix and as well as my old Diamondback TG wearing 25mm Paselas (becuase thats all that would fit :lol:) at this years Noosa Strada Bianchi and it's been a hoot. Plenty of grip and some comfort to boot. I could probably survive on 32mm 700c wheels but having never done a ride over 300km in length in one go, I am not sure how they would go in the dark on some crappy dirt road in the middle of nowhere.
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby wqlava1 » Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:52 am

singlespeedscott wrote:Do you have a picture of your Velosmith? I have been thinking that a low trail 700c bike may work. Of late I have done a few rides involving steep, dirt roads on my Geoff Scott shod with the trusty Parigi Roubaix and as well as my old Diamondback TG wearing 25mm Paselas (becuase thats all that would fit :lol:) at this years Noosa Strada Bianchi and it's been a hoot. Plenty of grip and some comfort to boot. I could probably survive on 32mm 700c wheels but having never done a ride over 300km in length in one go, I am not sure how they would go in the dark on some crappy dirt road in the middle of nowhere.


I've only got one picture from when I did a quick first build to get on it when i first had it, and Tim's diagram. Note that I take the blame for the build - I just got the frameset with sliding dropouts from Tim. The shifter position looked like an abomination at that stage, the seat is now a Flyer Select, the clamp on mudguard is back on a commuter, and many other changes. The colour is actually Dulux French Blue powdercoat - it looks purple on my screen in this photo.

When I have the image link the diagram comes up vastly magnified, so you'll have to click this PhotoBucket link
http://i736.photobucket.com/albums/xx7/ ... g~original

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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby singlespeedscott » Thu Sep 25, 2014 2:08 pm

Not bad. Would he build a bike that used standard derailleurs, a horizontal top tube, 1" threaded steerer and brazed on centre pulls?
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby rangersac » Thu Sep 25, 2014 5:55 pm

Tim would love doing something to your specs, but you did mention price as a factor in your original post, and he doesn't come cheap.
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Re: Thoughts on modern mass produced 650B randonneurs

Postby singlespeedscott » Thu Sep 25, 2014 8:15 pm

Price is always a concern. But I have sown the seed with my wife so hopefully the budget can be stretched.
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