Australian Tube Products Stem Cap Project

User avatar
yugyug
Posts: 1826
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:27 am
Location: Sydney

Re: Australian Tube Products Stem Cap Project

Postby yugyug » Sun Apr 03, 2016 9:04 pm

bigfriendlyvegan wrote:. The closest I came was beausage, which is beauty through usage (coined by Grant Petersen of Rivendell bikes), but that refers to the aesthetics of patina, scratches, chips etc. On further reflection, the idea I'm after may not even be Japanese and I may have just linked beausage to Japanese philosophy because their philosophy and aesthetic are pretty much the same thing.


The beauty of wear, patina, scratches and rust etc is often linked to the concept of 'wabi-sabi', though that's only a superficial aspect of what is a very deep, nebulous and uniquely Japanese concept.

About bikes, I don't mind some things showing wear and age, but I really like components that are designed and made so they can be restored by cleaning and polishing. (Scratched up old shimano anodized alu components come up great with the ano removed and a high polish, though that's hardly doing justice to their intended appearance.)

User avatar
utedeej
Posts: 757
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:56 pm
Location: Near Canberra

Re: Australian Tube Products Stem Cap Project

Postby utedeej » Sun Apr 03, 2016 9:22 pm

I've always liked the concept of Kintsugi - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kintsugi - where you repair a piece of pottery or porcelain with lacquer dusted with gold, silver etc. The break is a part of the items history and celebrated. Like in the picture below

Image

Though I don't know who I'd go filling in scratches on derailleurs, cranks or brake levers with gold.

old steel Bikes
Posts: 287
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:09 pm

Re: Australian Tube Products Stem Cap Project

Postby old steel Bikes » Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:54 am

bicyclepassion wrote:The white handlebar plugs look like the ATP ones. If they are the same hard, brittle plastic as the stem knob. That's the form and shape of them. I have not been able to remove them without breaking them.

The green ones definitely not ATP.

I have only seen them in red, but who knows how many colours they came in.

I should point out that I only assume they are ATP, as they are the same plastic, and the red ones exactly the same colour as the stem knob. And similar mounting, that is, they have a slight taper, and once they are in, they are in for good.

Warren.


Warren

At this point in time I have not tried to remove white ones with any effort. Also as you said they are plastic and would say brittle and as they are on a completed bike really do not want to do anything to damage them.

As for the green ones I realised they where not ATPs. But still like as they are old school as well, I just wish I had he other one. These are rubber instead of being plastic.

Thanks for your comments

Danny

Image

old steel Bikes
Posts: 287
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:09 pm

Re: Australian Tube Products Stem Cap Project

Postby old steel Bikes » Mon Apr 04, 2016 8:13 am

[But what about if the reproduction parts are purchased through the original manufacturer? You can go on and on.
Have also been plenty of stories out there about people who make fantastic quality car reproduction parts that have been sent legal letters to cease operations because they are not licensed by the original manufacturer to produce copies.

Anyway I like the effort that has gone into the red plugs, keep up the good work.[/quote]

maccayak

Good point. parts that come form the OM are original. I would think Brooks seats are the perfect of example reproduction items by a OM.
And I also agree with the point in can go and on.
Build how you want it, there is nothing that looks better at a freshly painted restored bike.
Also seeing a restored period bike where research has been the big part of the build is just as good.

Thanks for your comments and I do not disagree with them

Danny

User avatar
QuangVuong
Posts: 1768
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:04 pm
Location: Villawood, Sydney
Contact:

Re: Australian Tube Products Stem Cap Project

Postby QuangVuong » Fri Apr 15, 2016 11:47 pm

After receiving a few quotes from 3D printing, it cost anywhere between $5.50 to $36 per stem cap. $5.50 was the student price at the 3D printing club at USYD, but in limited colours, and unfortunately no red. Most other places were over $10 each cap. So, rather than putting the money into 3D printing services, I decided to go and buy a printer. It is a $550 CTC Dual, a Chinese printer based off the Makerbot Replicator. It can do 2 colour printing, so thatll be something for the future.

It came in a big box.
Image

And after a couple hours of setting up and calibration, it was time for a print.
Image

Halfway through


Final layers


Came out nicely, so I go and print 6 in one go. This is where I came into some issues. 2 of the 6 detached from the printer bed. I believe the extruder nozzles somehow hit the two 3/4 into the print. Since the printer still thinks that they're there, it continued to print in those two positions. Plastic filament was going all over the place, so upon clearing it away, I managed to rip another cap out of the printer. There's no real advantage of printing 6 in one go, so Ill stick with single prints from now on.


The caps were printed in ABS at 230°C, with a layer thickness of 0.2mm. Inside is 80% hollow, 20% being a honeycomb structure. Wall thickness should be 1.2mm. They came out just slightly undersized(19.65mm vs 20mm insertion diameter that I modelled), however, it is still adequately sized that it'll be a tight fit in the looser stems. For tighter stems, some material can be taken off.
Image

Shade of red is a bit brighter than the original, but Im sure theyll get a bit dirty, and the shades will match.
Image

These caps will be available to order now. For red/common colours, each cap will be $7.50, or $10 for one off colours of your choice. Postage will be $7.45(unfortunately the caps exceed the letter thickness restrictions), so why not get more than one so get more value out of it. Otherwise if you're local, pick up is fine too, and if you really want you could even check out the printer in action.

For those who have expressed interest, I will be in touch shortly. If anyone else is after these stem caps, send me a PM.

Not related, but look how cool this is: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:714484. All the parts are contained within the business card size.
Image

Cut the parts out, and assemble. And out comes a bike.
Image
Last edited by QuangVuong on Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
VillaVelo, by the Vuong brothers

Blog: https://villaveloframes.wordpress.com/
FB & IG: @villaveloframes

User avatar
bigfriendlyvegan
Posts: 3959
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:18 pm
Location: Denistone, NSW
Contact:

Re: Australian Tube Products Stem Cap Project

Postby bigfriendlyvegan » Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:14 am

Well done, Quang! Is there an award for retro-cycling entrepreneur of the year?

Have you thought about a camera scanning setup for random parts? Either one camera on a rig (rotating camera or rotating stage) or multiple cameras so someone can send you an extant part and have it duplicated?

I would also suggest that, if you're going to make this open source, start putting up your files at a centralised site and allow (curated) contributions in kind from other retro-tech heads. This would be a great resource, sort of like a tactile Sheldon site.

User avatar
grantw
Posts: 1792
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:22 am
Location: Wollongong

Re: Australian Tube Products Stem Cap Project

Postby grantw » Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:23 am

I was wondering how long before you got one of your own QV. Nice work. Love the bike.
Image

User avatar
QuangVuong
Posts: 1768
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:04 pm
Location: Villawood, Sydney
Contact:

Re: Australian Tube Products Stem Cap Project

Postby QuangVuong » Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:00 pm

bigfriendlyvegan wrote:Have you thought about a camera scanning setup for random parts? Either one camera on a rig (rotating camera or rotating stage) or multiple cameras so someone can send you an extant part and have it duplicated?

I would also suggest that, if you're going to make this open source, start putting up your files at a centralised site and allow (curated) contributions in kind from other retro-tech heads. This would be a great resource, sort of like a tactile Sheldon site.


3D scanning would definitely be something for the future. It would save a lot of time on replicating parts, particularly on more complex parts. There are open source 3D scanners around, so when I have the time, I'd definitely look into it.

There are sites such as Thingiverse out there where people share their STL(3D model) files. Anyone can access the files, and the files can be grouped into a collection/group. I'll upload the ATP stem cap onto that site soon. And if there are any other retro bike related things there, a collection/group can be started.

RobertFrith, see your messages on FB.
VillaVelo, by the Vuong brothers

Blog: https://villaveloframes.wordpress.com/
FB & IG: @villaveloframes

redbike531
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:58 pm

Re: Australian Tube Products Stem Cap Project

Postby redbike531 » Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:00 pm

As someone who does have limited access to a 3d printer I would like to thank you to Quang for offering the STL file to anyone that could use it. As far as I am concerned there are some items that cannot be original (and safe) in these restorations. Tires, brake blocks etc. While these caps aren't a safety issue they still fall into that list of consumable items and given that there is no intent to profit here I don't see a problem. I have actually considered making a replica stem in this style for a build so I think Quang's efforts need a bit of applause here

User avatar
QuangVuong
Posts: 1768
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:04 pm
Location: Villawood, Sydney
Contact:

Re: Australian Tube Products Stem Cap Project

Postby QuangVuong » Tue Apr 26, 2016 8:00 pm

Since all the caps are printed in ABS, there is a nice method to smooth out the caps. Acetone vapour smoothing is a easy method to do.

I got a acetone proof lid(can be any material that isn't affected by acetone), and put a wood screw into it. Then I screwed on a stem cap.
Image

Then inside a glass cup, I poured in some acetone and put the lid on. The stem cap sits inside the cup above the acetone.
Image

To speed up the process, the cup can be heated up to accelerate the evaporation. I did this on the heated print bed of the printer. You can do the same with a double boiler style setup, or whatever other method you want. Do keep in mind that acetone is flammable, and we're dealing with vapour, so being in a well ventilated area would be good.

Out comes a smoothed out cap. Leave it for a minute or so for the acetone to evaporate away before handing the cap. With a bigger container, you can do multiple at a time, however there could be some colour contamination of working with lighter colour plastics together with darker.
Image

With a simple shape of the stem cap, there's not much detail that is lost. The dimensions of this gold cap was 19.70mm diameter insertion with the largest diameter of the cap at 23.40mm. Afterwards, the cap came out at the same dimensions. The ridge is not affected at all. Only the sharp edges became a little bit rounded, but it's a very minimal difference.
Image

Things I've discovered:
• The top left cap was sanded, and the final surface finish is semi gloss. The process only takes less than a minute for sanded caps. Leaving them in there for longer makes no difference.
• The top right cap had the seam(position where each new print layer starts) sanded away only, so only that area is semi gloss. The rest of the cap was untouched before acetone smoothing, and is very glossy.
• The bottom right cap was untouched before the smoothing. I found that the longer it's in there, the more melted it looks. This one was left in the cup for about 30 mins whilst it was being heated.
• The bottom left cap is an original cap.
Image

For solid colours, the process works very well. For the metallic gold cap, it did smooth out the surface, but as the metallic plastic is printed layer by layer in a round path, the metallic flakes stay in place and it still looks as if there are layers.
Image

I have 3 red, one white, and one gold cap that are smooth. They are going to the people who helped out with the project if they want it. If you want a smoothed cap, get in touch.

For those sticking to the hand sanding/buffing, I find that a fingernail sanding/buffing stick that is foam backed works the best. The foam helps prevent you from sanding in a flat spot. The walls are 1.2mm thick, so keep in Ming how much material you're removing. Once all the layer lines are removed, you can work your way up to finer grits before using the buffing sticks. An alternative to using a buffing stick is using a bit of toothpaste/paint polish on a cloth. Stretch the cloth on a hard enough surface with one hand, and then rub the cap really fast on the cloth to buff it up. Or a clean buffing wheel will work too. It's a bit more work compared to using acetone, but it can result in a very similar surface finish.
Last edited by QuangVuong on Tue Apr 26, 2016 9:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
VillaVelo, by the Vuong brothers

Blog: https://villaveloframes.wordpress.com/
FB & IG: @villaveloframes

User avatar
Clydesdale Scot
Posts: 1966
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:55 pm
Location: Adelaide, SA

Re: Australian Tube Products Stem Cap Project

Postby Clydesdale Scot » Tue Apr 26, 2016 9:16 pm

I did the old fashioned sanding and then used the buffing wheel to get the effect I was after.
There was no evidence of the layers when sanded and buffed.
I was after a cap that would look like it was always there, rather than drawing attention to itself.
I gave mine to Mario on Sunday with the two he bought, and he was also impressed.
Excellent result. Thanks again.

Who has got the good idea for the next project?

User avatar
grantw
Posts: 1792
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:22 am
Location: Wollongong

Re: Australian Tube Products Stem Cap Project

Postby grantw » Wed Apr 27, 2016 6:44 am

That's really very impressive QV.
Image

User avatar
utedeej
Posts: 757
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:56 pm
Location: Near Canberra

Re: Australian Tube Products Stem Cap Project

Postby utedeej » Wed Apr 27, 2016 7:10 am

I'm trying to think of things but my knowledge isn't that deep.. Maybe:

Stem bolt caps for Shimano 600 and Dura Ace aero stems (though you can get repro alloy ones sometimes). Like here

http://www.bicycles.net.au/forums/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=42266&start=25

A bar end shifter mount that you could use with any downtube shifter or to repro one of the early ones like a Cyclo.

Little rubber plugs for Suntour Superbe Pro brake levers......

And great work withe acetone QV... the wonders of science... I shoulda listened more in school!

User avatar
WyvernRH
Posts: 2330
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:41 pm
Location: Newcastle NSW

Re: Australian Tube Products Stem Cap Project

Postby WyvernRH » Wed Apr 27, 2016 9:31 am

utedeej wrote:A bar end shifter mount that you could use with any downtube shifter or to repro one of the early ones like a Cyclo.


Hmm, plastic levers have never worked well. Interestingly tho, I was talking to someone in a 'Government Dept' recently who's job in the past had involved light metal 3d printing and I showed him an early Cyclo bar end. These are basically 3 bits. The bar plug body which has a slot in the middle, a central hole for the expander bolt and a hole side to side, a lever that fits in the slot that has a hole in the pivot point and a bolt that fits thru the holes in both and holds it all together. He reckoned this was a breeze to do with their 3d printer in some sort of light alloy but currently the unit cost would be more than the cost of a new bike....

Richard

User avatar
utedeej
Posts: 757
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:56 pm
Location: Near Canberra

Re: Australian Tube Products Stem Cap Project

Postby utedeej » Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:08 am

WyvernRH wrote:
utedeej wrote:A bar end shifter mount that you could use with any downtube shifter or to repro one of the early ones like a Cyclo.


Hmm, plastic levers have never worked well. Interestingly tho, I was talking to someone in a 'Government Dept' recently who's job in the past had involved light metal 3d printing and I showed him an early Cyclo bar end. These are basically 3 bits. The bar plug body which has a slot in the middle, a central hole for the expander bolt and a hole side to side, a lever that fits in the slot that has a hole in the pivot point and a bolt that fits thru the holes in both and holds it all together. He reckoned this was a breeze to do with their 3d printer in some sort of light alloy but currently the unit cost would be more than the cost of a new bike....

Richard


I was actually thinking just the lever body, with a repurposed aluminium shift lever.

old steel Bikes
Posts: 287
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:09 pm

Re: Australian Tube Products Stem Cap Project

Postby old steel Bikes » Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:13 pm

I will get the measurements to you for the ATP handle plugs next week. I will the bars to you if you need them just let me know it might take a while.

Danny

User avatar
WyvernRH
Posts: 2330
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:41 pm
Location: Newcastle NSW

Re: Australian Tube Products Stem Cap Project

Postby WyvernRH » Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:40 pm

utedeej wrote:
WyvernRH wrote:
utedeej wrote:A bar end shifter mount that you could use with any downtube shifter or to repro one of the early ones like a Cyclo.

Hmm, plastic levers have never worked well.
Richard


I was actually thinking just the lever body, with a repurposed aluminium shift lever.


Ah, I get it now, yes that could work depending on what sort of plastics the printer can use - good idea.

Richard

User avatar
QuangVuong
Posts: 1768
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:04 pm
Location: Villawood, Sydney
Contact:

Re: Australian Tube Products Stem Cap Project

Postby QuangVuong » Wed Apr 27, 2016 9:00 pm

Clydesdale Scot wrote:Who has got the good idea for the next project?

I have plans on a 3D printed spoke tension meter. And housing ferrules too, particularly step downs which seem to be a bit hard to find.

utedeej wrote:I'm trying to think of things but my knowledge isn't that deep.. Maybe:

Stem bolt caps for Shimano 600 and Dura Ace aero stems
A bar end shifter mount that you could use with any downtube shifter or to repro one of the early ones like a Cyclo.
Little rubber plugs for Suntour Superbe Pro brake levers......

I was thinking of the dust caps for the hidden bolt stems. Not sure how the threads will turn out though.

Small plugs can be easily made. A more flexible plastic like TPE/TPU can be used, but it is about twice as expensive as PLA or ABS. I wonder how it would be printing hoods.

WyvernRH wrote:Ah, I get it now, yes that could work depending on what sort of plastics the printer can use - good idea.
Richard

Bar end shifter mounts sounds interesting. I would like to get a Mavic left hand shifter mounted on a bar end. What sort of plastics would suit?

My printer can do all the currently available filaments: https://www.matterhackers.com/3d-printe ... nt-compare
VillaVelo, by the Vuong brothers

Blog: https://villaveloframes.wordpress.com/
FB & IG: @villaveloframes

User avatar
Mulger bill
Super Mod
Super Mod
Posts: 28993
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 2:41 pm
Location: Sunbury Vic

Re: Australian Tube Products Stem Cap Project

Postby Mulger bill » Wed Apr 27, 2016 9:29 pm

QV, I've got a set of 600 pedals but only the one dust cap, could you work your magic for me? Happy to give you the original as a template and pay a fair rate for your work.

Shaun
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
London Boy 29/12/2011

User avatar
QuangVuong
Posts: 1768
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:04 pm
Location: Villawood, Sydney
Contact:

Re: Australian Tube Products Stem Cap Project

Postby QuangVuong » Wed Apr 27, 2016 11:31 pm

They must be the 6207 pedals. I used to have a whole bunch of them. Ill see if I can find a set locally, and give it a go when I have some time.

Otherwise, Ill get in touch with you.
VillaVelo, by the Vuong brothers

Blog: https://villaveloframes.wordpress.com/
FB & IG: @villaveloframes

piledhigher
Posts: 290
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:10 am

Re: Australian Tube Products Stem Cap Project

Postby piledhigher » Wed Apr 27, 2016 11:35 pm

QuangVuong wrote:I was thinking of the dust caps for the hidden bolt stems. Not sure how the threads will turn out though.


I have a couple of the 90s profile stems like this, surely a collectors items that need caps.

Seriously, there would probably be a market for the plastic caps for square taper cranks that everyone lost or threw away, the thread is very fine pitch so seems difficult to replicate.

User avatar
WyvernRH
Posts: 2330
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:41 pm
Location: Newcastle NSW

Re: Australian Tube Products Stem Cap Project

Postby WyvernRH » Thu Apr 28, 2016 7:47 am

piledhigher wrote:Seriously, there would probably be a market for the plastic caps for square taper cranks that everyone lost or threw away, the thread is very fine pitch so seems difficult to replicate.


Ah I think we have been beaten to the market by a guy called 'Bespoke Chainrings'
http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/dna_96/m.html
He makes several types to fit TA, Stronglight 49 and other cranks.
I own several pairs of caps and a couple of chainrings and can personally attest to the high quality of his work.

Richard

User avatar
utedeej
Posts: 757
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:56 pm
Location: Near Canberra

Re: Australian Tube Products Stem Cap Project

Postby utedeej » Fri May 06, 2016 11:03 am

Someone on the Facebook Retro MTB Australia page suggested that 3D printing is the only way to get these again.

They are the plastic/rubber boots that go on retro Shimano cantilever brakes.

Image

Image

User avatar
QuangVuong
Posts: 1768
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:04 pm
Location: Villawood, Sydney
Contact:

Re: Australian Tube Products Stem Cap Project

Postby QuangVuong » Sat May 14, 2016 11:35 pm

All ATP stem caps have been printed, and sent off to those who ordered them. I look forward to see them installed, and am happy for any feedback for any improvements.

Naturally, the next thing to make is the matching bar end plugs. So thanks to old steel bikes, I've got an original set of bars/plugs in my hands.
Image

Image

And a nice and quick sketch.
Image

This is a close up. The image was taken as centred as possible to remove any distortions, but it seems as is the bar plugs are also slightly non symmetrical like the stem caps. The bottom side of the original white bar plug can be seen ever so slightly behind the red model. It is a small enough error that I'm not worried about as printing will not be 100% accurate anyway.
Image

The insertion section section is the same shape as the stem cap according to bicyclepassion. I am estimating a 10mm insertion length and 4mm thickness. But if anyone knows the actual measurement, I'll make the adjustment. The downfall of this design is that once they are in there, they wont come out in one piece easily.
Image

Image

Now, the thing that I do not know for certain is the internal bar diameter for these old 50s/60s steel bars. I cannot take the plugs out to measure, so I will have to rely on everyone else. Those who have bars from the era, can you let me know what the internal diameter is? And how were bars wrapped back then? Cloth tape starting from inside the bar and wrapped up the bar, with the bar end plug holding the tape in place?

The other question is, should these bar plugs be made with the original insertion design, or with splits like on current bar plugs(such as in the image below)? Both could be done; one for those seeking a more original design, and the 'improved' design for ease of removal.
Image
Last edited by QuangVuong on Sun May 15, 2016 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
VillaVelo, by the Vuong brothers

Blog: https://villaveloframes.wordpress.com/
FB & IG: @villaveloframes

bicyclepassion
Posts: 593
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 1:38 pm

Re: Australian Tube Products Stem Cap Project

Postby bicyclepassion » Sun May 15, 2016 7:22 am

I presume the ATP bar plugs were made to suit ATP steel handlebars. I'll measure some and send you the internal diameter.
They didn't tuck the end of the tape into the bars. Bar taping technique was as varied as it is now I think. But the neatest way was to start at the ends, wrapping outwards and upwards.
Cloth tape is not really suited to tucking in.
Great work, good to see these plugs being made again.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users