1950's Super Elliott

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WyvernRH
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1950's Super Elliott

Postby WyvernRH » Sun Mar 12, 2017 6:38 pm

Due the kind assistance of another forum member (thanks Col). This Super Elliott arrived this weekend.
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It has benn repainted<sic> in gold and turned into shopping bike by it's original owner (AFAIK) by adding flat bars, mudguards, carrier and a SA front dynohub. The reason I'm assuming it's the original owner is despite the changes it is still running a double fixed at the back!
All the bits apart from the bars/front wheel/saddle seem original. The rear wheel is Bayliss Wiley double fixed steel with an alloy 40h rim. chainset is a high end steel Williams5 pin affair stamped 'AS' for 1953 and the stem is a Phillpe alloy.
I'm not sure if the mudguard tabs and fork lighting boss are original or done when the frame was re-painted.

Frame number is E48489 under the bottom bracket
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It has some pretty spiffy headlugs and most interestingly Tecalmit oiler points for the head bearings (also for the b'bracket, no crappy flip top oilers here!)
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This makes me think maybe the mudguard tabs etc MIGHT be original if someone has gone to that trouble on the original build.
Has a 'Universal' very short reach brake on the front, tube for a brake at the rear but no brake (hey it's a fixie!)

The pedals are interesting too. I have no real idea what they are, Sheffield maybe? The end of axle oilers are very neat. Anybody know what they are?
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Currently I'm going with the 1953 date on the chainset, given the 'curved cup' headlugs and the general kit fitted. I have a mind that is a racer/trackie that was also required to do daily commuting, thus the brake fittings and (maybe) the mudguard tabs.
If anyone has any idea about dates, equipment, frame numbers, what the bike colour etc might have been when new all contributions gratefully accepted as my knowledge of 50's Oz bikes is very limited!

As an addendum the Phillipe stem lived up to it's reputation, as I undid the clamp bolt this happened.. :shock:
Image

Richard
Last edited by WyvernRH on Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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hiflange
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Re: 1950's Super Elliott (maybe?)

Postby hiflange » Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:20 am

Bummer about the stem. Pedal... the Speedplay Pedal Museum has a few contenders, none with a grease nipple in the cap though. I guess the early Sheffield is the most likely as it came in a few different models. The Philips Credalux is similar but with it's own distinctive cap. The only other one like it is the 70's Rabeneick.
What's the plan?

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WyvernRH
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Re: 1950's Super Elliott (maybe?)

Postby WyvernRH » Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:54 pm

Well the plan currently is:
1) strip the bike down and check for solidity,
2) find suitable replacements for the front wheel, stem and bars (Sydney Retro in two weeks time!)
3) de-rust and re-finish all the chrome bits as necessary.
4) repaint/re-sticker the frame,
5) re-assemble.

Point (4) is the sticky one. Firstly there seems to be no-one willing to do even single colour paint in the Hunter area so probably this is going to be a trip to Sydney and a long wait while it works it's way to the top of Star Enamelling's backlog. Also I have no idea what the bike might have looked like. It may have been elaborate as in Mario's example or it may have been plainer. The image I have in my head at the moment is plain colour, lug lining and a pointed white panel on the seat post.

Richard

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WyvernRH
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Re: 1950's Super Elliott (maybe?)

Postby WyvernRH » Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:58 pm

Some bad news, I finally got time to strip the frame and found that someone has used a gas welder to weld (really weld, not braze) the chainring to the back of the flange of the drive crank! A quick whiz with the grinder to remove the crud shows that major, major engineering is in order if the crank is to be salvaged, the weld is full penetration in places and is along all the edges of the crank flange- chainring interface. Chainring is a write-offwhatever... Given the state of the chrome on the crank I'm not sure salvage is a worthwhile option. Sad cos these were high-end model cranks. Anyone got a spare top-end r/h Williams 5 pin crank? :cry:

Richard

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Clydesdale Scot
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Re: 1950's Super Elliott (maybe?)

Postby Clydesdale Scot » Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:40 pm

Richard,
I will follow your project with interest.
I recently was the transporter of a similar period Super Elliott for some of the painting phases. It is owned by someone I have known for a few years.
It was repainted to an exceptionally high standard by Daniel Stone (same painter as my EA Boult) then to get the handpainted lining done. Back to Daniel for clear coating. The detail is all hand painted. The lining, scrolls and feathers is done in Adelaide by a trained signwriter who had many discussions with the Super Elliott frame painters.
It is a track bike, and will be ridden on the track
Image

Image
images from Daniel Stone Autopaint

Mario is now back from holidays and should offer his comments soon. Mario also has some numbers in his Super Elliott database.


Philip

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WyvernRH
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Re: 1950's Super Elliott (maybe?)

Postby WyvernRH » Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:33 pm

Clydesdale Scot wrote:Richard,

It was repainted to an exceptionally high standard by Daniel Stone (same painter as my EA Boult) then to get the handpainted lining done. Back to Daniel for clear coating. The detail is all hand painted. The lining, scrolls and feathers is done in Adelaide by a trained signwriter who had many discussions with the Super Elliott frame painters.
It is a track bike, and will be ridden on the track
Philip
Wow, That is a very high standard of finish indeed! I'm afraid I won't be aiming quite that high, just single colour with lug lining was what I was thinking of, assuming I can find someone to do the single colour of course :? .
I will have period parts so maybe the next owner can add the fancy work....
On the parts front it is looking like only the rear rim is going to be salvagable. I've already mentioned the chainset problems but in addition the cups and axle are 'modern' Japanese (and stuffed), the headset is brinelled and the rear hub is shedding chrome like an old collie dog.
Looking like total replacement parts time. Good news is I had a play with my new USB endoscope thingy inside the tubing and internally the frame seems in very good condition. Also found another stamped number '68' right at the top of the r/h side of the seat lug. The numbers were stamped next to each other but 'laying down on their backs' so to speak.

Currently stripping the old paint off to check for cracks in the frame. I've been doing this layer by layer in case there is some of the original finish left but sadly the 'painter' seems to have stripped or sanded back the frame and given it a thick coat of gray undercoat beneath the Dulux gold finish.

Given the colour of the braze and the quality of the brazing I would say the mudguard tabs are not original but are done quite well so I might keep them. The rear brake bridge tube seems to use the same braze as the rest of the frame and is very neatly finished so it probably is original? Down tube next and we can see if the pump pegs look original or not. They look a bit like an addition to me at the moment.

Quick question for our Aussie bike experts. It came to me with 27" wheels. Even with narrowish tyres things were a VERY close fit and the front brake is one of those ultra short Universal types. Even with a tubular track wheel (700c/622) clearances are not massive and I will need to use a short brake. So could this frame have been built for 26x 1 1/4" or is it just a tight track/road frame of the time?

Richard

Richard

silverlight
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Re: 1950's Super Elliott (maybe?)

Postby silverlight » Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:20 pm

Hi Richard
Have sent a PM

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singlespeedscott
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Re: 1950's Super Elliott (maybe?)

Postby singlespeedscott » Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:37 pm

Posting to watch the progression of the build
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WyvernRH
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Re: 1950's Super Elliott (maybe?)

Postby WyvernRH » Sun Apr 09, 2017 5:32 pm

Numbers are popping up all over this frame. I mentioned above that the numbers 68 (or 86) appeared clearly on the r/h side of the seat lug.

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Well on investigating a crack in the paint on the top of the seat lug I find that the '86' is actually the end of the frame number stamped around the seat lug!

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Why would you need the number under the 'Bracket AND around the seat lug? Except for the last two numbers the seat lug numbers are very shallow stamps which would have vanished under the original undercoat IMHO.

Also, it was pointed out to me that the Tecelmit braze-ons in the head tube are unusual. Would these have been add-ons at the re-paint like the mudguard tabs or would a fast, tight frame like this have had these from new? The owner obviously worried about this sort of thing with cap-end oilers in the pedals as well.

Richard

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WyvernRH
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Re: 1950's Super Elliott (maybe?)

Postby WyvernRH » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:56 pm

Reviving an older thread to let folk know I am working on getting this one back on the road. I am experimenting with various paint removal methods and I have used paint stripper on this frame. The paint, especially the thick undercoat has been hard to remove! Unfortunately removing the paint has revealed the reason for the thick undercoat. It looks like this bike was sitting out in the weather before it was re-sprayed and the tubes have pitted quite badly. Odd cos there does not seem to be any serious corrosion internally.
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Still recoverable but will need a good painter.
Another problem is that the forks are quite a way out of line side to side and for-aft. I think this happened when someone squeezed the Dyno Hub in the front and 'set' the forks by eye. Not a real problem, the forks seem in good nick otherwise so I'll be able to re-set them once all the paint is stripped off.
Still not sure if those mudguard tabs are coming off or not....

Richard

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WyvernRH
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Re: 1950's Super Elliott

Postby WyvernRH » Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:09 pm

Status report - Another blast from the past. I put his frame aside, a bit dispirited with it's general condition and got on with the Malvern Star 5 Star. Now that's done and I've decided to have a go at painting frames myself it is all systems go on this one.
First off all that crappy gold paint came off and it was thoroughly de-rusted and given a dust over with white primer to prevent any further rust which seems to re-appear in hours on this frame. Unfortunately this process showed up a whole heap minor dents, glitches etc.
Firstly, remember I said someone had welded the ring to the crank? Well turns out they did it while the crank was attached (!) and used an arc welder with a stick that was probably meant to weld high carbon steel. There is a spray of arc spatter embedded in the lower downtube on the drive side and it is HARD! Neither my blade sharpening files nor my bastard file will even scratch the spatters. Trying to grind it will put a lot of heat into the tube in a high stress area so I'll have to think about how to remove this or just ignore it. paint and the chainring should hide it...maybe...
Also someone has been careless with the hammer when removing the cotter pin on the non-drive side. Whole series of varying depth dents on the other side of the downtube and seat tube near the bottom bracket. I can at least fill these with silver. Unfortunately there are a lot of other minor dents on the top and head tube which were either filled with bog or masked by the immensely thick primer. No matter, I'm getting the braze and files out anyway I suppose... :P As I'm going this far I think I will be taking those mudguard mounts off as well, they are certainly not original. At the least I will tidy up the slightly dodgy brazing on them.

Current status - I have straightened the forks and re-aligned the rear stays/dropouts so we are ready for the rest of the torch work next week.

I will be doing the paint on this one as well. Going to try my masking techniques on those fancy headlugs and I've invested in a box lining kit so I'll be practising a lot on some scrap tubing! I used to do lining on BSA motorcycle tanks so we will see....

All suggestions for components appreciated. I'm going to try for period spec on this one.

Richard

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Clydesdale Scot
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Re: 1950's Super Elliott

Postby Clydesdale Scot » Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:47 pm

Has Mario given you a frame build date?

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pedalleur
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Re: 1950's Super Elliott

Postby pedalleur » Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:23 pm

As an addendum the Phillipe stem lived up to it's reputation, as I undid the clamp bolt this happened.. :shock:
Image


Bugger, that wouldn't be an easy one to replace
Same thing happened to me removing a bar off an old Record road bike, had SR stamped on the side of the stem {forget what that stands for

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uart
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Re: 1950's Super Elliott

Postby uart » Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:44 pm

pedalleur wrote: Same thing happened to me removing a bar off an old Record road bike, had SR stamped on the side of the stem {forget what that stands for
Sakae Ringyo Company : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SunTour

For what it's worth I've seen dozens of alloy SR stems over the years, they were literally one of the most popular brand stems of their era. And I've not seen any failures, so I don't think they were in the same league as the Phillipe stems.

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pedalleur
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Re: 1950's Super Elliott

Postby pedalleur » Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:59 pm

The previous owner may have man handled it, they don't need to be tightened that much.
It was a good parts bike anyway, used those aluminum 27" rims for something else
It came with a number of other bikes he gaveaway for free including a Repco Olympic, and a Indi mens i done up and sold.. the chrome forks came from the Record bike.

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pedalleur
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Re: 1950's Super Elliott

Postby pedalleur » Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:09 pm

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Converted it to a 5X1, and found a good index thumb shifter for it

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pedalleur
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Re: 1950's Super Elliott

Postby pedalleur » Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:15 pm

Image


Used the best steel wheels i had, not a speck of rust on them

The sprockets were unusal, never seen a 5 spd cassette before

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WyvernRH
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Re: 1950's Super Elliott

Postby WyvernRH » Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:06 pm

It's been a long haul but the Super Elliott is finally finished (well almost). I quite despaired with this one at times, it had had a very hard life and showed it in many ways which needed fixing. Lots of dents and abuse that needed the torch and files. That being said the frame is basically sound and very light (what tubing might have been used? Anyone know or guess?)
It is the first restoration where I have done everything including the main paint, detailing and box lining. I'm quite pleased with the result but it is not up to the standards shown in some of the examples down South in Adelaide. Quite pleased with the box lining, it worked pretty well for a first try using magnetic guide strips and paint pens. Need more practice I think.
Given the frame had been tampered with already I decided to go with a slightly later fit out to represent a refit sometime in the 60's (so I can actually ride it around here).
Final spec:
Normandy alloy front hub with Super Champion 27" rim
1952 Sturmey Alloy 4 speed FM with Super Champion 27" rim
Stronglight 49D chainset 47t
Sheffield steel pedals (came with the bike)
Lepper alloy Stem
Belari(?) alloy brake levers
Generic alloy Maes bars
Universal front brake (came with the bike)
Early Shimano rear brake
I used this caliper as the (added on) brake tube brazed on top of the curved rear bridge required a drop that was way too long for the Universal rear.
Zeus seatpost with generic leather saddle

Still requires cabling and clamps which will happen as soon as I get some more spare time.

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Hopefully get it out on the road sometime in the next couple of weeks to see how it rides.

I must admit there have been several points with this frame when yet another problem was discovered where I almost put this one aside as too much grief but it has turned out not too bad in the long run.

Richard
Last edited by WyvernRH on Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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singlespeedscott
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Re: 1950's Super Elliott

Postby singlespeedscott » Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:10 pm

Looks fantastic.
Image

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ldrcycles
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Re: 1950's Super Elliott

Postby ldrcycles » Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:40 pm

That looks incredible, very nicely done! What shifter will you be using with the 4 speed?
"I must be rather keen on cycling"- Sir Hubert Opperman.

Road Record Association of Australia

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WyvernRH
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Re: 1950's Super Elliott

Postby WyvernRH » Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:17 pm

ldrcycles wrote:That looks incredible, very nicely done! What shifter will you be using with the 4 speed?
Just the standard 4-speed Sturmey trigger that came with the hub. AFAIK the FC/FM/FW series of hubs will work with any of the Sturmey 4 speed triggers including the ones marked' 3-4 speed'.
These do need mounting somewhere where the trigger can come right down to get 4th gear safely. I use just at end of the handlebar hook on drops.
Image

Richard

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WyvernRH
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Re: 1950's Super Elliott

Postby WyvernRH » Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:49 am

Thought I would add a photo to show what my Super Elliot looks like now.

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I acquired a set of blue Airlite fixed/free hubs built onto Weinmann 27" rims a while back and they just seemed to gravitate to this bike...
Also I wasn't happy with the brakes I had fitted and finding a pair that could cope with the very short reach at the front and the very long reach at the back was a problem. I eventually found and fitted a pair of French Saccom sidepulls that fitted well and look 'period' tho I'm pretty sure they are not.

Riding it as a fixed wheel at the moment.

Richard

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singlespeedscott
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Re: 1950's Super Elliott

Postby singlespeedscott » Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:54 pm

What a cracker
Image

silverlight
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Re: 1950's Super Elliott

Postby silverlight » Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:01 pm

This looks great .. Blue airlites really stand out
well done
SL

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