New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

zedries
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New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby zedries » Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:04 pm

Hi All,

I'm Zaahir - thanks for having me on the forum. Been reading for a while and decided I should join and post

I was hoping I could get some buy in from the more experienced heads here about the rebuild I'm doing on a very cheap steal frame and components I picked up lately.

Frame is as yet unidentified (repainted by previous owner) and I've just spent a few evenings cleaning up the Shimano Arabesque componentry and prepping to widen the rear dropouts to fit my spare crane creek shiny light wheels but I will maintain the friction DT shifters so I don't need to adjust too much.

The crank set I have is a Sugino super maxy 52/40 and I was just about to order an 8 speed cassette but I can't decide on what set up to get - a 11-23 or a 12-25 or even something bigger?

For reference, the bike will likely be a run bout for me as I have a specialized that I ride races/triathlons on. I live in inner city Sydney and don't intend on doing a bunch of climbs on this but I would like something manageable if I decide to ride through Balmain or some other horridly hill laden suburb.

Also, any thoughts on if the RD will handle the reach?

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

I'll post up some pics shortly. Just at work on my lunchbreak

Zaahir

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P!N20
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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby P!N20 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:10 pm

For a run about, I don't think you'll need an 11 tooth sprocket, so my vote is for the 12-25.

What RD are you planning on using? Shimano 600? Those cassettes are pretty normal sizes, so I don't think you'll have any issues.

zedries
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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby zedries » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:38 pm

P!N20 wrote:For a run about, I don't think you'll need an 11 tooth sprocket, so my vote is for the 12-25.

What RD are you planning on using? Shimano 600? Those cassettes are pretty normal sizes, so I don't think you'll have any issues.


Thanks for the reply. Planning on running the Shimano Arabeque RD and FD. It just looks so cool. ha ha.

I found a Sunrace 12-25 for the right price (link below) . Any thoughts on that?

https://www.cyclingdeal.com.au/buy/8-sp ... ano/CS-R86


Z

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Derny Driver
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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby Derny Driver » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:39 pm

zedries wrote:
I found a Sunrace 12-25 for the right price (link below) . Any thoughts on that?

https://www.cyclingdeal.com.au/buy/8-sp ... ano/CS-R86

Z

Shimano Arabesque is a nice looking groupset. I have sets of Galli, Shimano 600ex, Shimano DuraAce AX ... Ive always liked the Arabesque. There has been quite a lot of it for sale lately on the Facebook retro market.
I cant be sure but I vaguely have an idea that a 26 cog is the maximum that these old derailleurs can handle. I think the 12-25 will be fine and yeah, SunRace is good. Not sure that the rear mech will get all 8 gears but it wont matter if you lock it off the 12, or 12-13. Try it and see.
Im pretty sure that crankset takes 110 BCD, if so its easy to pick up smaller chainrings. Id swap out the 52 for a 48 for general riding around town. Even if its an unusual BCD the retro forum guys have all that stuff and reasonably priced.
But yeah, you are on the right track I reckon.

zedries
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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby zedries » Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:06 pm

Thanks - I think the Arabesque is a really good looking piece of vintage kit. Just sort of fell in love with the chrome and detail!

I have read that the RD should be able to handle the 8 speed so hopefully I'm able to stretch the dropouts tonight and all goes well once I order the cassette and chain. Seeing if I can't manage another couple of things on that website to take care of the free delivery for over $50.

I see what you are saying about the crankset and it makes sense. I will keep an eye out for it. In saying that, I still want a bot of speed and power out of this thing so I can turn up to a group ride one morning on this beast and actually keep up.. DT friction shifters and all! ha ha

zedries
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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby zedries » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:52 am

As promised - pics:


Image


Who doesn’t love cats
Image

Image

Image

Image

I'm hoping to do this build on the cheap - that, is to see if I can salvage parts and do what I can with what I have in hand.

I found a 8 speed MTB cassette in my piles of parts and was well on my way to paint stripper yesterday when I came to the realisation that the quill is stuck in the steerer tube.. Nooooo!!!

So tonight I'm going to pour down some vinegar and hope it dislodges the galvanic bond/rust given the wedge is loose. I fear, however, that I will be needing a new quill after cutting this one off if need be.

also have an old aluminium wheel with a 8 speed suntour freewheel on it I need to try and take off. Might work well as a temporary if the MTB cassett doesn't work given the sixe of the cogs and me using a Arabesque RD.

Wish me luck

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GaryF
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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby GaryF » Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:25 pm

This is a great project and the Arabesque stuff will look great. I love the builds that cost little and are made up predominantly with stuff you have. The current paint scheme screams 'Italy' so it will be interesting to see what you come up with considering the Shimano components. The frame looks early 70's to me. I wonder where it came from?

uart
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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby uart » Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:39 pm

zedries wrote:I was hoping I could get some buy in from the more experienced heads here about the rebuild I'm doing on a very cheap steal frame and components I picked up lately.


Interesting looking old frame Zaahi. I'd say if you got all that stuff for real cheap it was probably a steel. :)

zedries
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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby zedries » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:02 pm

ha ha - I love puns

zedries
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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby zedries » Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:12 pm

GaryF wrote:This is a great project and the Arabesque stuff will look great. I love the builds that cost little and are made up predominantly with stuff you have. The current paint scheme screams 'Italy' so it will be interesting to see what you come up with considering the Shimano components. The frame looks early 70's to me. I wonder where it came from?



Thanks Gary, should be fun to build for my first vintage steel frame

It’s interesting you mention Italy as the lady who sold it to me was Italian! Her hubby was under instruction to downsize so I got a bargain I think.

Interestingly the parts it came with included a pair of brand new Campagnolo brake calipers which is unusual given the vintage of all the Japanese componentry.

I’m hopefully going to get closer to knowing what’s up when I get to strip the frame this weekend but I suspect your early 70’s guess is close given the frame only has a couple of braze ons and the rest is clamp on.

The B.B. is also “English” so I doubt it is Italian but rather painted to look like it was from there. I’ll snap some close up pictures soon. Might help in the ID process.

Zaahir

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GaryF
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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby GaryF » Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:50 pm

I don't know if this will help to identify the builder but the rear stays appear to be brazed to the seat tube cluster quite low down on the cluster. Perhaps an explanation might be that the frame builder only had a slightly short length stay tube available. I suspected the bottom bracket was British. Are the dropouts Campagnolo as they don't look to be Campagnolo to me (no adjuster screws and large diameter eyelets). It will be interesting to see if there is any identifying marks on the front fork steerer tube when you finally separate it from the main frame.

I have had great success burning paint off frames in the past. I had access to an Oxy Acetylene set and it proved to be a wonderful means of paint removal as well as normalising the frame - stress relieving too. It is easy to control and the frames never changed colour.
Last edited by GaryF on Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

zedries
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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby zedries » Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:04 pm

Thought I would post more pictures, coz lets be honest - No one reads the dribble:

pedal before evapo-rust bath
Image

Pedal after:

Image

Comparison:

Image

I did polish them with some light turtle wax compound polish but will probably use my metal polish and a polishing wheel/rotary tool when I have some time but pretty happy how well the evapo-rust worked. Pity its so pricey.

Cold setting the drops to accept the 130mm spacing I need for a 700c wheel with an 8 speed cassette:

Image

the cleaned up cassette I was proposing to use (but I think there are too many teeth. Believe it or not this was rusty:

Image

zedries
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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby zedries » Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:14 pm

GaryF wrote:I don't know if this will help to identify the builder but the rear stays appear to be brazed to the seat tube cluster quite low down on the cluster. Perhaps an explanation might be that the frame builder only had a slightly short length stay tube available. I suspected the bottom bracket was British. Are the dropouts Campagnolo as they don't look to be Campagnolo to me. It will be interesting to see if there is any identifying marks on the front fork steerer tube when you finally separate it from the main frame.

I have had great success burning paint off frames in the past. I had access to an Oxy Acetylene set and it proved to be a wonderful means of paint removal as well as normalising the frame - stress relieving too. It is easy to control and the frames never changed colour.


No i don't believe they are campy dropouts.

good thinking on the rear stays, although it may also be that frame is really tall? I'm new to the world of steel frames so I don't know exactly how to measure it but I suspect this is a large/xl sized frame. I'll have a better idea once I test fit wheels etc now that I have the rear drop outs widened.

Wish I could do the burn off... unfortunately I don't have a garage where I can easily perform that, just a storage cage int he basement of an old apartment block. I could get away with using the paint stripper I have but I dare not have any flames burning. (I've not been able to use my MIG in a long time and I suspect my skills have long since deteriorated for the same reason).

Here's a pic of the BB serial number: MOH52241

THe only reference matching I've found on the interwebs has been for a Murray. But that would put it at a 1940's era frame which I doubt.

Image

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10speedsemiracer
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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby 10speedsemiracer » Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:35 pm

Think the brake calipers may give you grief. Are they nutted or recessed mount? And if recessed, will the frame take recessed mount brakes? Also the question of whether they will reach...700c in 70s frames often need a longer reach caliper like the Tektro r539 or r559. Can get these in nutted mount.
Or you can drill the frame to accept recessed mount but the rear brake bridge is a pain...
Mmm, SunTour

zedries
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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby zedries » Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:42 pm

10speedsemiracer wrote:Think the brake calipers may give you grief. Are they nutted or recessed mount? And if recessed, will the frame take recessed mount brakes? Also the question of whether they will reach...700c in 70s frames often need a longer reach caliper like the Tektro r539 or r559. Can get these in nutted mount.
Or you can drill the frame to accept recessed mount but the rear brake bridge is a pain...



Thanks for the tip. I will check out the clearances and frame this weekend (or tomorrow) and see how the rear caliper marries up against the larger wheel. Worst case scenario I either get different calipers or revert to the older style wheel (not looking forward to that).

Z

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10speedsemiracer
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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby 10speedsemiracer » Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:52 pm

Stick with the newer wheel would be my advice. Steel 27 inch rims are not an ideal braking experience, especially when wet.

Good luck
Mmm, SunTour

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GaryF
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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby GaryF » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:34 pm

Paint stripper will work well. It's interesting to see the original blue paint under the green. The components appear to be cleaning up well.

It's nice to see the brazed on cable guides on the bottom bracket - yet another indicator to the age of the frame. For instance, Campagnolo advertised a small braze on cable ferrule (for brazing to the bottom bracket to guide the gear cable) in 1958. It wasn't until 1969 that Campagnolo advertised a larger, longer braze on cable ferrule for the gear cable. You have this longer type of cable ferrule brazed to your bottom bracket (along with the smaller cable ferrule). A number of component manufacturers did produce similar cable ferrules. (Suntour, Shimano, Simplex, Hurret, etc). Just using the Campagnolo example, I would say your frame is perhaps a late 60's frame but, more confidently, an early 70's frame at the earliest. That's not to say that the frame could have been produced at any time in the 70's and perhaps into the early 80's but with the lack of other brazed on components I would say early 70's is your best bet.

+1 on the brake calliper concerns.

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WyvernRH
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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby WyvernRH » Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:32 pm

GaryF wrote:This is a great project and the Arabesque stuff will look great. I love the builds that cost little and are made up predominantly with stuff you have. The current paint scheme screams 'Italy' so it will be interesting to see what you come up with considering the Shimano components. The frame looks early 70's to me. I wonder where it came from?


Well I'm going with Haden (UK) for the lugset, fork crown and seat stay tops, especially the seat stay tops, I still have a few of those in the box in the workshop. The stays do end low as GaryF says.. Dropouts look like standard Haden kit Maybe all sourced from Brit-Int in Castle Hill back in the day? I'm reckoning an Oz build back in the 70's - 80's period probably with pretty decent tubing of some sort. Else maybe a Japanese build from the same period given the frame number. They were big on using Haden components. Not that big a frame for the period. I'm 5 foot 9 inches and I ride a 58cm centre to centre seat tube on 70's-80's bikes and back in the 70's racers got their leg over the biggest frame possible so I have 60 cm c-c frames in my collection that I ride frequently.

Whatever - nice frame - looks like you are doing a good job bringing it back to life!

Richard

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10speedsemiracer
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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby 10speedsemiracer » Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:56 pm

I've been struggling with this frame in my mind since the post came up. Looks similar to another frame I've seen, but can't remember where or when, or what it was. Just thought of something as well, re the pedals, which came up nicely.

If they went into the evapo-rust bath fully assembled, will need disassembling and re-greasing and possibly new ball bearings. Easy job, just fiddly, much easier with a bench vice.
Mmm, SunTour

zedries
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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby zedries » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:01 pm

Thanks for the great feedback Richard and Gary. Really appreciate it.

I'll do some digging on the Haden angle and see what i can dig up. I also suspected it was possibly a nishiki as the lug set's also similar to that but sometimes I see images and the fork crown is different! ha ha.

Good to know about the bike height. I'm on a 56cm specialised as my long rider with a compact frame and it suits my gangly arms well (I'm 6 ft).

I can also sadly confirm that the campy veloce calipers will not fit the rear brake - of r the front for that matter as the holes in the fork are too small for the nut thing to go through.

Any suggestions for calipers which will fit the frame (round tubing rear), be period correct AND be ok with 700c wheels?

Thanks in advance all.

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10speedsemiracer
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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby 10speedsemiracer » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:45 pm

Would firstly fit the rims and measure how much brake reach you'll need. I'm guessing somewhere between 55-60mm.
The long-reach version of the Shimano 600 caliper (57mm) may fit and they're from the mid 70s. Just change the pads for KoolStop salmon. The Shimano 600 I'm referring to are these...

Image

or you could fit Dia-Compe Gran Compe like these :

Image

Again, would recommend the KoolStop pads.

Alternatively just bite the bullet and order a set of nutted Tektro r559, but it really all depends on how much reach you need.
Mmm, SunTour

zedries
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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby zedries » Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:05 am

10speedsemiracer - thanks for the suggestions. I think given the levers are dia compe and the bag of bits came with the brake QR thumb things I will look out for the dia compe calipers.

If anyone has any they would be willing to part with please PM me.


I’ll take the necessary measurements soon and report back.
Thanks again people!

zedries
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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby zedries » Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:39 am

A quick fleebay search revealed this:

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre ... 2344744236

Seems period correct. Any insights from those well versed?

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10speedsemiracer
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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby 10speedsemiracer » Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:50 am

That would be the sort of thing, but these are missing bits.

Need to know how much reach you need with the 700c rims first though. No point buying calipers until then.
Mmm, SunTour

zedries
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Re: New (Old) rebuild - looking for some build advice

Postby zedries » Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:00 pm

10speedsemiracer wrote:That would be the sort of thing, but these are missing bits.

Need to know how much reach you need with the 700c rims first though. No point buying calipers until then.



Noted. Will report back ASAP.

Got a ride in the morning tomorrow so likely later in the weekend

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