Vintage Freehubs - How Many Were There?

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WyvernRH
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Vintage Freehubs - How Many Were There?

Postby WyvernRH » Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:15 pm

As I recently had an influx of Bayliss Wiley 1950's freehubs I was wondering how many other manufacturers flirted with this idea in the pre-Shimano era. The Bayliss Wiley was around for 10 years or so from the early 1950's to early 1960's. It used a standard thread to allow stock fixed sprockets to be screwed on. three or four 1/8" or up to five 3/32"
Image

I also have an example of the Japanese DNB freehub wich (AFAIK) only came in 5 speed and used unique sprockets with the two flats that slid on and were secured with a lock ring. Early 1960's I think?
Image

While both are Steel the DNB is not as high quality construction as the Bayliss.

And of course in more recent times<sic> the infamous Maillard Heliomatic. I don't have one of these, still looking for a hub and block set.

The Bayliss hub is a well engineered solution but in modern terms, very heavy. Pretty unbustable tho.
The DNB is more lightweight (in construction and weight) but the freehub body is very solid with chunky pawls and springs. However I doubt anyone used these much outside Japan?
The Maillard had its reliability problems IIRC and like the DNB required a unique set of sprockets which limited it's market a bit.

So did anyone else have a go at this concept before Shimano sprung their version on the world and dragged everyone else along with them?

Oh I'm not counting the 'sliding block' system on Trivelox rear hubs where the block moved left-right to change gear not the derailleur/tensioner as the concept requires an internal 'freehub' design but that wasn't the main aim of the design.
Image

Richard

bicyclepassion
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Re: Vintage Freehubs - How Many Were There?

Postby bicyclepassion » Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:54 pm

Bayliss and Wiley low flange 3 cog versions were available from about 1937. BSA made a version around the same time, called the tank hub (may have been a nickname). 1938 Malvern star Oppy Cyclo model came standard with the Bayliss Wiley version.

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Re: Vintage Freehubs - How Many Were There?

Postby 10speedsemiracer » Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:15 pm

Fichtel-Sachs or just Sachs, or whatever they were called that month? Wasn't there a 3 cog hub similar to the one shown (Bayliss) ? May even have been a 4 cog cluster. I don't remember or know anything more than that, although fairly sure it was late 40s-50s..
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WyvernRH
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Re: Vintage Freehubs - How Many Were There?

Postby WyvernRH » Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:32 pm

bicyclepassion wrote: BSA made a version around the same time, called the tank hub (may have been a nickname).
Went looking for the BSA freehub on the Web and found this:
http://lovelybike.blogspot.com.au/2014/ ... p-hub.html
Something I never knew existed. BSA's equivalent of the Sturmey TF maybe?
http://www.sturmey-archerheritage.com/i ... tail&id=38


Richard

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WyvernRH
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Re: Vintage Freehubs - How Many Were There?

Postby WyvernRH » Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:12 pm

10speedsemiracer wrote:Fichtel-Sachs or just Sachs, or whatever they were called that month? Wasn't there a 3 cog hub similar to the one shown (Bayliss) ? May even have been a 4 cog cluster. I don't remember or know anything more than that, although fairly sure it was late 40s-50s..
Ah, do you mean something like this?
Image

This is one of my long term projects, a three-speed Fichtel coaster braked hub. Been looking for the matching derailleur and 'anti-slap' fitting for about 10 years now.... Got the frame to fit it to tho.
Nice (if heavy) piece of kit. I hadn't considered it as a veteran/vintage freehub before but of course you are correct - it fits the definition.

Richard

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Re: Vintage Freehubs - How Many Were There?

Postby 10speedsemiracer » Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:38 pm

That's the one...I also think I've seen a 4-cog version, possibly not coaster-braked.
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Re: Vintage Freehubs - How Many Were There?

Postby Clydesdale Scot » Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:35 pm

Richard, as often happens, I was looking for something else and I noticed this:
Image

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Re: Vintage Freehubs - How Many Were There?

Postby WyvernRH » Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:47 pm

OK, yet another variation on the early freehub arrived in the post yesterday.
It is the one on the right with a 'Normal' Bayliss freehub for comparison on the left.

Image

The only markings are B1-45-1 on the hub body (B might be an R) and 'Partridges patent 28068' on the oiler cap

Unlike the fully threaded body on the Bayliss this hub has a threaded body with opposing flats that the two inner cogs slip over and the outside cog screws on to secure them. This is similar to the Japanese DNB hub I have from the 60's but that is much cruder in construction and has no oiler. The one piece body and other construction is indicative of a high quality piece of kit from the 30's -50's.
So, what is this? It is obviously not a Bayliss - is it one of the fabled BSA Tank hubs? I've yet to find a picture of one of these but they are mentioned in several places on the web. I have also heard that one or more continental manufacturers came up with the idea concurrently with Bayliss, is it one of those? Or an early DNB from Japan? Maybe not with the British sounding patent on the oiler cap?
All suggestions (and any web links/pictures!) appreciated.

Richard

PS Sorry just realized the oiler on the new hub is not shown in the picture. It looks just like the B&W oiler except for the patent inscription
Last edited by WyvernRH on Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:33 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Vintage Freehubs - How Many Were There?

Postby 10speedsemiracer » Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:21 pm

The oiler cap, and the style of hub construction would lend itself to UK manufacture and I'd be leaning toward either a very early Sturmey Archer or BSA unit. I'm wondering if this is the hub that went with the BSA 4-star derailleur


Image but that would make it post-war (?)

I'm far (very) from an expert on these, only what I've picked up here and there.
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Re: Vintage Freehubs - How Many Were There?

Postby 10speedsemiracer » Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:26 pm

Yay, found the bike I was thinking of..

It may be related to this BSA model (607/608)

http://www.disraeligears.co.uk/Site/BSA ... an_11.html
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WyvernRH
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Re: Vintage Freehubs - How Many Were There?

Postby WyvernRH » Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:57 pm

10speedsemiracer wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:26 pm
Yay, found the bike I was thinking of..

It may be related to this BSA model (607/608)

http://www.disraeligears.co.uk/Site/BSA ... an_11.html
Possibly.. The full catalog can be found at:
http://threespeedhub.com/wp-content/upl ... 50-UK1.pdf
and on page two the 'Freehub' is mentioned in conjunction with this derailleur BUT it mentions that the sprockets are splined whreas this hub has two flats. Might be described as splined at a pinch I suppose. I have yet to see a proper picture/artist impression whatever of this BSA hub. They must have made a few but they are very elusive!

Richard

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Re: Vintage Freehubs - How Many Were There?

Postby 10speedsemiracer » Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:15 pm

I enjoyed reading through that catalogue, and feel that the Gold Column bike, in BSA 4-star guise, would have been quite a weapon.

22-23lbs, Reynolds 531 and a 4sp rear end in 1950 would have been something special.
Noting that the 4sp was an option on most of the models, the scarcity may be a symptom of the extra-cost of speccing a 4sp derailleur setup in lieu of the traditional 3sp BSA IGH. Price lists of the era indicate gearing would have added roughly £2-£3 to a purchase price already in excess of £10 so I imagine, although I'm guessing, that there would have been fairly low take-up by consumers. Some lovely bikes in there though.
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Re: Vintage Freehubs - How Many Were There?

Postby WyvernRH » Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:59 am

Blast from the past... Above, a while back, I was trying identify the freehub on the right of this picture:-

Image

I have recently been building a rear wheel using a TriVelox 'A' sliding gear hub (where the block moves L-R not the derailleur) and I noticed the similarity in the stamps on the hub barrel of that hub and the one in the picture. TriVelox also made a gear system which worked in the 'normal' pattern where a derailleur moved the chain across a static block - and the r/h hub in the picture is the free hub that came with that setup and, yes it is part of a TriVelox B or C gear setup, probably from the late 40's early 50's. Now I knew where to look I actually found an article in the VCC library that describes the 'static' freehub and how the sprockets are fitted by sliding them onto the two flats of the freehub body.

Image

Also - interesting YouTube video showing the type 'A' 'sliding' gear in action! Can't wait to try out riding with one of these to see how it changes in real life.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNDKSXE2tLc

Richard

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Re: Vintage Freehubs - How Many Were There?

Postby Tmuir » Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:26 pm

Thanks for the video, I didn't even know such a thing existed and it just blows my mind how different that is to everything else I've seen.
I've got a 40s/50s frame with a braze on that would fit that, I was looking for a Cyclo Oppy derailleur for it, but that would be even more fun.

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