Mystery Frame from a WAHCC Member

[twitwalk]

Hi Gents, HappyHumber posting here helping my friend & neighbour, twitwalk from the WAHCC in maybe helping to find some clues as to identifying this frame retrieved from the estate of a recently deceased WAHCC member.

Any clues or similarities with known bikes gratefully considered. Perhaps the the format of the serial number with the offset 'R' maybe our best clue as to builder or manufacturer.

Standard few shots of some details as follows;

Head tube details:



Seat stay and tube detail with Serial numbers. Nicely tapered, wrap around stays.


Bottom brack & drop out details


left hand drop out. The drive side has had its hanger ground off at some stage.

[HappyHumber]

thanks to the mods for releasing this for twitwalks account. The frame despite being a little rough in some of the finishing is reasonably light and thin (sounding) tubing. Alas, the previous owner had a tendency to blast and prime most frames that came his way, so any tell tale patina has been long lost.

[find_bruce]

thanks to the mods for releasing this for twitwalks account.

He came with a recommendation from you, but it was approved anyway

Some nice detail on the frame - I always admire wrap around stays & these look to be well made

[WyvernRH]

Well, the lugset is very likely the Haden Firefly set which was used by several UK manufacturers on their mid to higher end models.


I have a mid-50's Holdsworth and an early 60's Dawes with these lugs. With the wraparound stays and early type Cyclo dropouts I might suggest it could be a Carlton, who also used these lugs on some models and used wraparound stays. Is there a frame number stamped on one of the rear dropouts or under the bottom bracket? Or on the fork steerer maybe?
Holdsworths were also noted for wrap-around stays on some models but the filework around the dropouts and lugs looks a bit rough for a Holdsworth.

No oiler is present on the top left of the bottom bracket which is interesting as I would normally expect one. Has it been covered up by the front derailleur braze-on? If so it may suggest that the braze-on is a later addition. As the gear hanger was removed it was probably a Benelux or Simplex specific hanger that would not accept a modern gear which puts this frame pretty squarely into the mid 50's to very early 60's range IMHO.


The rough, bubbly stuff near the l/h chainstay exit on the bottom bracket may bear investigation. Could be just stray brass or crap under the paint but might be a repair.

Nice looking frame, definitely worth putting in some effort on that one. Note that unless you can find a frame number all the above is informed conjecture

Richard

[twitwalk]

Thanks Richard,
Nice to have a possible direction. One of the rear drop outs does indeed have Benelux stamped on it! I can't see any numbers stamped anywhere other than on the top of the seat tube, and I wonder if the 56 does confirm what you say about mid 50's to early 60's date range?
Unfortunately, as you say, the standard of finish on the lugs isn't of a high standard and I'll have re-blast those areas to see what's lurking there. On the plus side, the rest of the frame seems straight and the tapered rear stays look very nice, oh, and it's quite light.
I can't see any evidence that there was ever a name badge riveted/fastened to the head tube (is that the name?). Did Dawes, Carlton or Holdsworth use decals in that period (50's-60's)?
Thanks again and your caution about conjecture is duly noted.
Regards
Viv

[WyvernRH]

Another point to consider is that both the front and rear dropouts have been 'filled and filed' to give the smooth angle, not brazed ito a domed slot (as in the picture I posted) This tends to point to a lower production run using more labour intensive methods.
Just as an aside, I did think of one make that used the letter/number sequence stamped on the seat lug like yours, which is Elswick-Hopper who also did wrap-around stays. However the 'R' in your number (R18356) would give 1940 or 1964 as the year.
1964 would be just possible for the rear dropouts, I have a 1960 Lincoln Imp with Benelux specific dropouts and the Benelux Mk7 changer staggered on into the early 60's, this Raleigh still had a Benelux changer in 1964 https://function88.wordpress.com/catego ... ak-c-1964/...so maybe? I can't find and Elswick early 60's catalog but maybe you will have better luck.

Richard

[twitwalk]

Hi Richard,
I see what you mean about the E H numbering (I'd never heard of Elswick Hopper) and I'll do some digging about specs from the 60's.
The filled and filed dropouts look very backyard compared to the manufactured domed style! In fact under the gaze of macro snaps the bottom bracket looks VERY backyard...
Can't see any evidence that there has been an oiler on the bb and I can't see anything on the inside. Would there be an oiler if there's a drain hole on the underside of the bb? Around 4.5mm in this case.
Cheers
Viv

[GaryF]

Such a nice frame. Are you going to clean up the rough bits before it gets a paint job? I too thought it looked British but Richard's Elswick Hopper lead is very interesting.

Its not uncommon to see an oiler boss that hasn't been used.

Very exciting project, best of luck.

[twitwalk]

yep, will blast and tidy up the rough bits especially as my peers and superiors have seen it on this forum....
The number looks Elswick Hopper-ish but some of the standard of construction (the bb) looks very ordinary and probably not factory standard so as Richard said, possibly a repair. The search continues....
Thanks for the encouragement (I may need it)

[GaryF]

yep, will blast and tidy up the rough bits especially as my peers and superiors have seen it on this forum....
The number looks Elswick Hopper-ish but some of the standard of construction (the bb) looks very ordinary and probably not factory standard so as Richard said, possibly a repair. The search continues....
Thanks for the encouragement (I may need it)

.

I must say that the BB does stand out as not being the same quality fit/finish as the other lugs on your frame. I think with a bit of work, this frame will look fantastic when finished. I am very impressed with your willingness to discover all you can about this frame. It's also really interesting to get a snapshot of the level of knowledge available and shared on this forum through your thread.

Regarding the build quality - I remember doing a similar repaint to a Malvern Star, 5 Star road frame. I am 100% confident it was a genuine and never reconditioned frame. I like to burn the paint off frames I re-paint so as to remove all of the old paint finish. (This process never heats the frame to a temperature anywhere near a temperature that can damage the structure of the frame.)

After doing this, I was amazed to see the many rough file marks that were now very evident. Inspecting the lug/tube junctions I was also amazed to see a real lack of solder between the lugs and tubes in most situations. I went over the frame and re silver soldered most of the lugs.

I thought Malvern Star, 5 Star models were the 'top of the range' but evidently not. I wondered if this particular frame was built by an apprentice learning his/her craft?

[WyvernRH]

<snip> but some of the standard of construction (the bb) looks very ordinary and probably not factory standard <snip>

Regarding the build quality - I remember doing a similar repaint to a Malvern Star, 5 Star <snip>
After doing this, I was amazed to see the many rough file marks that were now very evident

I probably wouldn't fret too much about the finishing touches. Despite what some folk think not all old bikes, even good quality ones were built by artisan pefectionists, especially in factories. Mostly the mid-range, lower end stuff was built by chaps on piece-work rates and the quality of build depended on the foreman's attitude and the company's Q/C policy.I can think of several British manufacturers who let 'minor' brazing faults, file marks, spatter etc through to the paintshop and relied on a good thick filler undercoat to mask any slips (Dawes and several Raleigh sub-brands spring to mind).
Stuff like this would have been sent back by the foreman or Q/C at smaller, more quality concious works. Sunbeam for example, were reknowned for their attention to detail and quality before BSA took them over - when it all went downhill....

I have repaired several older Malvern Stars over the years (never a 'hand built') and the standard of build varied from OK to frankly poor where a seat tube had pulled out of the bottom bracket due to lack of insertion (the pin missed the tube!) and lack of braze (admittedly after a LOT of years of use )

So, what I am trying to say here is that frame looks to be a really nice frame and with a good undercoat it will look great. The minor flaws are part of th e frame's character and will vanish under the paint. They are probably just cos the chap building all those years ago was in a bit of a rush/not too experienced/had a hangover/was distracted by thinking of lunch/beer/women whatever.

Richard

[GaryF]

So, what I am trying to say here is that frame looks to be a really nice frame and with a good undercoat it will look great. The minor flaws are part of th e frame's character and will vanish under the paint. They are probably just cos the chap building all those years ago was in a bit of a rush/not too experienced/had a hangover/was distracted by thinking of lunch/beer/women whatever.

Richard

Thanks for your insight Richard, and I think your last paragraph says it all. I couldn't agree more.

[twitwalk]

WyvernRH wrote:
So, what I am trying to say here is that frame looks to be a really nice frame and with a good undercoat it will look great. The minor flaws are part of the frame's character and will vanish under the paint.

I'll adopt that as my ethos.
But as a starting point I'd really like to settle on a date of manufacture as a minimum (if I can't discover the actual manufacturer).
And speaking of Elswick Hopper, I came across this on Sheldon Brown

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/org/elswick.html

Cheers
Viv

[daddybus]

Hi from the UK... I came across your forum by chance when looking to identify a mystery bike of my own. I have a frame which looks to be exactly the same as this one in all ways described by the op... even down to the rough brazing. It has a similar serial number (although slightly less legible). Mine doesn't have any paint or decals either... I wondered if the op got any further with identification (BTW I have been in touch with the Vcc Elswick Hopper marque specialist Nigel Land & he has confirmed NOT an Elswick Hopper)... Apologies, as I can't see how to add photos... But I do have some posted In the Oct/Nov 2019 edition of The Vcc's News & Views magazine page 37 under the "not a Lincoln Imp" heading (if anyone has access to this)... Many thanks, Cheers Mike

[daddybus]

https://flic.kr/p/2he9opf
https://flic.kr/p/2he8sVF
https://flic.kr/p/2he9qiW
https://flic.kr/p/2he8yqt
https://flic.kr/p/2he6RNL
https://flic.kr/p/2he6WTL
https://flic.kr/p/2he6Yte

[Clydesdale Scot]

[daddybus]

Thanks for sorting the pics ^^

[twitwalk]

Hi Daddybus (and thank you Cldesdale Scot),
fantastic to hear about another frame!!! (and that it's a REAL frame) Unfortunately I haven't progressed with an ID of the frame but you've perked me up no end!
I see your frame has its original Cyclo Benelux drop out intact whereas mine has been sawn off. Apparently this was not unknown 'Back In The Day' so other groupsets could be fitted. I'll live with it but unfortunately, having settled on Campag as a groupset I can't use the brazed on down tube shifter bosses because they're a different thread.
I'm now inspired to try approaching other forums about an ID.
Thanks for your reply and perhaps between us we can 'crack' this.
Cheers
Viv

[daddybus]

Hi Viv
Thanks for the reply...! Ive had mine for around 4 years, it came with a mixture of old (original??) & 70s/80s components. It was badly painted in a fetching shade of metallic sh*t brown... :$ the bloke i bought it from didn't know anything about it & i beleive he bought it as is... There are no decals or headbadge rivet holes so no clues there.
I've managed to source pretty much all the benelux / GB / Williams bits that i 'think' it would have had originally (apart from the wheels, which i haven't made my mind up on yet whether to go og type Dunlop chrome 27" or some retro alloy 700s). i have found chips of a flam green so I'm probably going to go with that colour... But id love to get it decalled & detailed as original.
Good luck wirh the search.. I think I've pretty much exhausted all search avenues in the uk, i always assumed it was a UK frame, but finding one in Aus is quite an exciting prospect for me... Do you think it could be an Aussie frame?
Btw mine also has another more lightly stamped number unde the bb either side of a lubricator hole ME139RPC does yours? https://flic.kr/p/2he8x3d
All the best
Cheers
Mike

[twitwalk]

Hi Mike,
I got mine from a deceased estate. It'd been blasted and primed and any info about it's origins had 'gone to the grave'. The components for it also came from the estate but it was just 'pick and mix' to make up a complete bike. I got Campag derailleurs; Regina 5 speed cluster; 27" alloy rims; Normandy hubs; Atax stem; GB (I think) cranks; Mafac brakes etc etc ...I guess people did change to different components over time!!
I really don't know if it's a local frame! So annoying! A date would be good too, some of my 'bits' could be hopelessly out of period. I saw your BB number and went and checked mine. Nothing! It looks like the lugs have been 'pot brazed' so perhaps the braze has filled the stamped number??
Have you tried LFGSS (London Fixed Gear and Single-Speed)? I was advised to ages ago but never did. If you haven't I'll try them.
Where are you located? I was over your way in Sept/October.
Cheers
Viv

[daddybus]

Hi viv I'm in northwest England, i must admit I haven't thought of trying Lfgss but sure if you want to give them a go that's great...! My latest line of enquiry is Wearwell I've included a few pics of lugs /dropouts/ fork crown that match mine + a serial number which uses the same serifed type font & position. Apparently wearwell did make lightweights & won a mid 1950s Tour of britain. It may be a blind alley, there's not much information about them but one thing i did find is that they exported 80% of their products which may explain yours being in Australia?? Anyways I'll see if i can glean anymore info from the vcc
Cheers
Mike Wearwell https://imgur.com/gallery/a97NNX9

[Clydesdale Scot]

other options for possible identification of the frame are
http://www.retrobike.co.uk/forum/viewforum.php?f=12
and
https://www.facebook.com/groups/vintage ... suk/about/

[daddybus]

Cheers Clydesdale Scot...! It's been posted on both but no joy I'm afraid... It was a while ago... Years, in the case of Retrobike, maybe it's time to give it another go
Regards
Mike

[daddybus]

Old Post I realise but I've just had it confirmed that my bike (as the OP's) IS a wearwell... Possibly a shadow...

[nemo57]

Great work!
Is it the Shadow? Your opportunity to finish it in "flamboyant purple with ice blue head and seat panel, coloured tapes and cables. Attractively transferred." Sounds like the ducks nuts.
http://www.historywebsite.co.uk/Museum/ ... eaflet.htm