If I had a hammer. One tool bike repair.

uart
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If I had a hammer. One tool bike repair.

Postby uart » Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:55 pm

A couple of months back I picked up this old Apollo (now identified as late 80's Concorde). See thread here: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=96709

I didn't save it from the curbside collection, but I'm pretty sure that the gentleman I got it from did. In any case I was pretty keen to give it a good clean up and at least get it rideable, if not really worthy of a full resto. Last Sunday, after a few hickups getting the crank-frame spacing right, I had her all ready to go. Jumped on for the first ride and I couldn't believe it, once fully inflated the 700x25c rear tyre was rubbing on the rear brake stay (well not actually the stay but the bottom of the aluminium calipers. It was however because the stay was too low) :cry:

I couldn't believe that an 80's bike produced for mass market would be so piss weak as to not even fit a 700x 25c tyre (though admittedly these continentals are a big 25, more like 26 to 26.5). But still, I was mighty disappointed and had serious thoughts about demoting it back to hard rubbish. :evil:

Anyway, this afternoon I decided to try something before abandoning the project. So I took to the rear brake stay with an F'ing big hammer. :D To be honest it was a bit cathartic to pound on this thing, I was so pee'd off with it, but actually the result was quite pleasing.

Here is the bike cleaned up and ready to ride:
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Here is the rear brake stay after I'd walloped it. Can you see the slight arch now. I didn't take any before photos, but it was absolutely dead straight across before. :)
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And here is the view of the clearance after the adjustment, with the tyre fully inflated. Yeah, a few mm of daylight where there was absolutely none beforehand. (The wheel looks a bit off centre here, well it is very slightly but this is mostly just the camera angle you can see)
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And finally, a picture of the bike with the offending implement. :shock:
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Tim
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Re: If I had a hammer. One tool bike repair.

Postby Tim » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:20 pm

uart wrote: couldn't believe that an 80's bike produced for mass market would be so piss weak as to not even fit a 700x 25c tyre


That bike was probably a wannabe racer. I think it's a quite respectable Tange frame.
In those days I was riding on 18-19mm tyres at 140-160 PSI, on a Tange frame.
Every semi serious roadie rolled on tyres like that.
25mm was unheard of for race or race type use.
You should have been a butcher. :D
Last edited by Tim on Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Tim
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Re: If I had a hammer. One tool bike repair.

Postby Tim » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:30 pm

The technical name of the tool is a Knockometer.
The technical name of the operator is Mug. :D

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WyvernRH
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Re: If I had a hammer. One tool bike repair.

Postby WyvernRH » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:56 pm

Actually, if it was only meant to mount a really narrow tyre it just might mean it is a fairly good frame for its day. A lot of (cough) racing frames were built to take 19-22 tyres back then. If you re going to recycle it to rubbish drop me a PM and I'll come down to town and take it off your hands. Or if you want I could put a new bridge in for you. That'll make a mess of the paint on the stays tho' :wink:

Richard

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10speedsemiracer
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Re: If I had a hammer. One tool bike repair.

Postby 10speedsemiracer » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:28 pm

Maybe some 23s on there before the hammer came out...
Mmm, SunTour

uart
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Re: If I had a hammer. One tool bike repair.

Postby uart » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:23 pm

Tim wrote:That bike was probably a wannabe racer.

Yeah the hot pink fade colour scheme really screams of the bike for a wannabe triathlete of the day to me. Lining up there in the transition area with your aero helmet and your newfangled red and white look pedals. The name of every sponsor that you don't actually have plastered all over everything that you're wearing. Seat post as high as possible and stem slammed all the way down so that you look totally awesome aero as you roll out - even though you know that you can't really hold that position for long and are going to ride the last 40km on the tops. :D - Whoops, I think I just gave away too much information about my past. ;)

You should have been a butcher. :D
Haha. It was certainly a rough job. TBH, I was surprised that it turned out as well as it did. :)
Last edited by uart on Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

uart
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Re: If I had a hammer. One tool bike repair.

Postby uart » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:44 pm

WyvernRH wrote:Actually, if it was only meant to mount a really narrow tyre it just might mean it is a fairly good frame for its day.

Yeah, my research suggests it was reasonably high in the Apollo range at the time. The tubeset is all Tange 900. It's not particularly light, but still came in about 10.6 kg with the random period bits and pieces I threw at it to get it rideable.

After making the opening post here today I finally got that first ride in. Just a low intensity ride in boardies and T-shirt up to the bogey hole for a swim. Since you're from Newcastle I'll assume that you know where that is. :)

TBH, I like this bike a lot more after riding it. Stable but still handles really well, and it rolls as true as a die when riding no hands which is usually a good sign that the frame is straight and true. At least I now know that I didn't screw up anything too badly by belting it. :)

uart
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Re: If I had a hammer. One tool bike repair.

Postby uart » Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:51 pm

WyvernRH wrote:Or if you want I could put a new bridge in for you. That'll make a mess of the paint on the stays tho' :wink:

No probs, I'm happy with how it turned out now. :)

One more question about this bike and the chain stays. I've still got a bit of an issue fitting the cranks that I wanted to use because the drive side chainstay is not flattened (or crimped or whatever you call it where it's dented in a bit to give more clearance for the inner chaining).

I've got this nice old set of "Aero Cold Forged - Super Duralumin" cranks that came off a really old Raleigh (was going to restore it but the frame was too damaged) that I want to use because they're a lot lighter than the steel ringed Exage stuff that came as stock on this Apollo.
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The problem I had was that these cranks slide just a little further onto the taper than do the originals, and so the inner chainring bolts hit the chainstay. After messing about with a few spare spindles that I have here without any luck, I finally thought I had it sorted out by putting in a slightly longer one (from a triple crank set), but that actually put the chainrings slightly too far outboard. Not by enough to really bother me if it still shifted, but unfortunately it didn't, and the front derailleur didn't have enough travel to get onto the large chainring.

Because I was so itching take this thing for a ride the other day, when I hit this last minute problem I just did a really quick and nasty reversal of the long spindle. This of course put the left crank way out to buggery, but it finally positioned the right crank in about the right range for chainstay clearance and proper shifting.

So here's what it currently looks like. Not a lot of clearance but just enough (fully torqued on).
Image
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I can live with the above but, as expected, with the long spindle reversed the left crank is way outboard :shock:
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It's rideable as above, but obviously not ideal. So the question is, can a big ogre with a whackometer (and a grinder that can profile a few punches and cold chisels if needed) put one of those creases or dents or whatever it's called into the right chainstay without destroying the frame?
Last edited by uart on Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

spannermonkey
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Re: If I had a hammer. One tool bike repair.

Postby spannermonkey » Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:45 pm

Tim wrote:The technical name of the tool is a Knockometer.
The technical name of the operator is Mug. :D

It's actually an " American screwdriver " :mrgreen:

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WyvernRH
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Re: If I had a hammer. One tool bike repair.

Postby WyvernRH » Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:28 pm

Or... you could put a freewheel spacer (or more than one depending how thick the ones you are using are) between the frame and the fixed cup which will move the whole axle assembly over to the right by the thickness of the washer(s) which is normally enough to give you sufficient clearance. I've used this trick several times over the years matching alloy 10 speed chainsets to bikes built for a 5 speed cottered set up.
You can still buy these freewheel washers in various thicknesses from e-bay or your LBS might have some hanging around.
Pretty sure I have some out in the shed, pm me if you have trouble finding them.
If your toolkit runs to large diameter HSS holesaws you can make your own of course :wink:

Richard

uart
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Re: If I had a hammer. One tool bike repair.

Postby uart » Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:05 pm

WyvernRH wrote:Or... you could put a freewheel spacer (or more than one depending how thick the ones you are using are) between the frame and the fixed cup which will move the whole axle assembly over to the right by the thickness of the washer(s) which is normally enough to give you sufficient clearance. I've used this trick several times over the years matching alloy 10 speed chainsets to bikes built for a 5 speed cottered set up.
You can still buy these freewheel washers in various thicknesses from e-bay or your LBS might have some hanging around.
Pretty sure I have some out in the shed, pm me if you have trouble finding them.
If your toolkit runs to large diameter HSS holesaws you can make your own of course :wink: Richard


Thanks for the advice Richard. Yeah I think I could probably find or make something there.

The only problem is that the right side fixed cup is literally the only thing on the whole bike that I've not been able to undo. When I got this bike the first thing I did was to spray everything down with WD40 and/or Lanox and make sure everything was free an unseized before I even started work on it. I went over ever single nut and bolt, stem, post, brakes, cones, cranks, pedals - absolutely everything - and the ONLY thing that I couldn't budge was the right hand BB cup. :(

I mentioned this in the other thread (about this bike) and several people gave me some good tips. I haven't been back to that cup yet or tried any of those tips, because the cup was still in excellent condition and I could easily do the spindle and repack everything while working from the other side. Anyway, it looks like I'll have to try again (using some of those tips) if I'm ever going to get these cranks spaced correctly.

The other option I might try is to see if I can swap out these "Aero" cranks with another of my bikes. I'd really like to use these old cranks because they look quite cool and I've got nothing else here in the same weight class at the moment. Perhaps I can get a better fit with them on one of my other bikes and use the alloy cranks (and rings) from that on the Apollo.

For now the bike is still totally rideable as is. It looks a bit wrong but the asymmetry (measured cranks arms to stays with verniers) is only 9.5mm. TBH I didn't really notice it much when riding.

uart
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Re: If I had a hammer. One tool bike repair.

Postby uart » Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:41 pm

WyvernRH wrote:You can still buy these freewheel washers in various thicknesses from e-bay or your LBS might have some hanging around.
Pretty sure I have some out in the shed, pm me if you have trouble finding them.
If your toolkit runs to large diameter HSS holesaws you can make your own of course :wink:
Richard


Hi Richard. Do you think it would work to make one by just filing (or grinding) out the threads from one of those left hand lock rings? See the one in the photo above, it's really chewed (someone's used stilsons on it). It's about the right size and was thinking about replacing it anyway, so maybe I can repurpose it as a spacer?

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Re: If I had a hammer. One tool bike repair.

Postby wqlava1 » Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:19 pm

uart wrote:
It's rideable as above, but obviously not ideal. So the question is, can a big ogre with a whackometer (and a grinder that can profile a few punches and cold chisels if needed) put one of those creases or dents or whatever it's called into the right chainstay without destroying the frame?

Most people would use a G-clamp. Put a shaped wooden piece that fits the existing shape on the side of the chainstay you are leaving the same, and a piece with a tongue (about the same size as tongue and groove flooring but rounded at the ends where the groove stops in your chainstay) on the side you want to indent. This method used (with higher tech shaped steel) by people who've posted on some other forums I've seen, for making more space for 650B rear tyres. I'd start with a bit of hardwood flooring.

I'd say a hammer might not be controllable enough in this situation.

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Re: If I had a hammer. One tool bike repair.

Postby GaryF » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:23 pm

I think the only real option is to remove the RH cup and do what WyvernRH suggests with the washer. I think I would resort to a bikeshop to remove the RH cup If my spanner wouldn't do the job.

I've made-up a little fixture to hold my RH cup spanner in place. Basically it is a couple of large washers (bigger than the Dia. of the RH cup flange) with a bolt washer and nut that fits through the washers and the length od the bottom bracket plus about 20mm - I use a 12mm dia. bolt.

I then sandwich the spanner, in place on the RH cup with the bottom bracket. The ficture is only finger tight to allow the spanner a little space to unwind the cup a little. I then try to undo the RH cup and the fixture holds the spanner from slipping. This usually works for me.
Last edited by GaryF on Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: If I had a hammer. One tool bike repair.

Postby P!N20 » Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:16 am


uart
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Re: If I had a hammer. One tool bike repair.

Postby uart » Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:43 pm

Thanks for the information everyone. I did finally get the fixed cup removed last week, but it took an unbelievable amount of brutalisation to do it!

At first I tried the bolt and two large washer method and it kind of locked on, but the forces required were so great and that the washers couldn't hold their shape. They basically just cold worked themselves into the exact shape of the inner cup (even had a deep hex impression of the nut that I had behind them), so that eventually the two washers just kind of merged together from either side and no more force could be applied without them slipping.

I tried again with an even larger bolt and larger nuts behind the (new) washers for more strength, but the same thing happened. I tried impact and everything but just couldn't get it to budge and eventually the bolt and washers just slipped. (Again the washers had cold forged themselves into the cup and almost fused together).

At this point I was as mad as hell, and really determined to get it out one way or another. I knew I could almost certainly get it done with a torch, but wanted to leave that for absolute last resort. So I decided to just go completely f##king mental on it with a big hammer and cold chisel. I knew I would cause some damage, but still hoped it would be less than with a torch. :twisted:

Well I made a nice little notch in the flat of the cup with the chisel and pounded the crap out of it (clockwise), but it still didn't move. So I upped the ante even more and let the chisel start damaging the BB shell a little (cutting a groove into it) so that I could pound it with even more force. Still no joy.

Eventually I got my wife to assist and press her full force on the breaker bar (with the bolt and washer set up that was still in there) while I pounded it for another solid 5 minutes non stop. And just as she started pleading with me : "give up - give up, it's never going to move, you are just going to wreck it", it finally came free. :D

As expected I did a little bit of damage. Some cosmetic stuff to the underside of the BB shell which is of no concern to me, but unfortunately also a small amount of damage to the outer threads of the shell itself. I knew this slight damage would clean up ok after screwing a new cup in and out a few times, but it was pretty anxious moments the first time getting the new shell screwed in without cross threading.

Luckily everything cleaned up ok though, so I'm gonna go make a spacer now. I'll post some photos when I get some time later this week. :)

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Re: If I had a hammer. One tool bike repair.

Postby WyvernRH » Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:33 pm

uart wrote:Hi Richard. Do you think it would work to make one by just filing (or grinding) out the threads from one of those left hand lock rings? See the one in the photo above, it's really chewed (someone's used stilsons on it). It's about the right size and was thinking about replacing it anyway, so maybe I can repurpose it as a spacer?


Yup, that would work. Might be a bit thick tho, you may need to grind it down in thickness as well a fair bit.

Richard

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Re: If I had a hammer. One tool bike repair.

Postby uart » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:38 pm

I finally got around to getting this thing ready to go. So here it is after that bit of panel beating, first on the rear brake stay and then on the right side chain stay. I had to tidy it up a bit to make it look presentable, but the crease I put into the chainstay doesn't look all that bad. As my old dad used to say, a blind man galloping past on a fast horse would barely even notice that it wasn't a professional job. ;)

I'll get it back together in the next day or two and post up some photos of the completed bike. :)

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