Rear Wheel Slipping in Horizontal Dropouts

Gashead
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Rear Wheel Slipping in Horizontal Dropouts

Postby Gashead » Tue Jan 06, 2015 11:11 pm

So, each time to remove the rear wheel, I always have trouble wheel I reinstall. The wheel seems to slip on the chain side and as a result, the wheel starts to rub against the frame (on the non-drive side).

I use a torque wrench to make sure the axle nuts in the horizontal dropouts are set at 40 Nm, and the wheel is aligned in the centre, but often into the ride when pushing on the pedals a bit, the wheel seems to slip very slightly.

Any tips or what am I doing wrong? The bike is a Felt Footprint (carbon frame) so I am nervous about going to a very high torque setting.

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Derny Driver
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Re: Rear Wheel Slipping in Horizontal Dropouts

Postby Derny Driver » Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:25 am

Throw away the torque wrench and tighten those pluckers up! It has aluminium dropouts like most track frames, you wont hurt it.

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outnabike
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Re: Rear Wheel Slipping in Horizontal Dropouts

Postby outnabike » Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:39 am

Hi Gashead,
All the older bikes I had used the horizontal slide out system. But being of steel we just tightened them up till they didn't move. If you have what appears a very thin or frail frame just cut a bit of ally of a slightly smaller thickness and put it into the slot to be held in with the washers. It will act as a keeper and stop the axle sliding forward, but this shouldn't be necessary.
My old motorbike had a lock bolt adjuster but with a fading memoryI can't remember one ever being on a push bike.

I am betting as others have said that you are just not putting enough muscle into the thing.
I know torque wrenches are the modern thing, but even with all the bikes and cars I repaired, I never had a problem without one.
Vivente World Randonneur complete with panniers

slidetaker
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Re: Rear Wheel Slipping in Horizontal Dropouts

Postby slidetaker » Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:22 pm

Please also check that the contacting surfaces of the frame and the nut are free from oil and dirt.

Contacting surface of the nut should also have good condition groove.

You can also try to use a fine metal file to roughen up the axle track at the dropout for better bite.

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HLC
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Re: Rear Wheel Slipping in Horizontal Dropouts

Postby HLC » Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:54 pm

torque it up!!!

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Re: Rear Wheel Slipping in Horizontal Dropouts

Postby weldin_mike_27 » Wed Jan 07, 2015 6:11 pm

Are we talking quick release here?

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HappyHumber
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Re: Rear Wheel Slipping in Horizontal Dropouts

Postby HappyHumber » Wed Jan 07, 2015 6:15 pm

weldin_mike_27 wrote:Are we talking quick release here?

I think you've just given me a great idea for the latest overpriced, bike specific "must have" gadget publicised on sites like the Radavist, et al. 'The Quick Release Torque Wrench'

Oh yeah, I think Sheldon did something similar once before thinking about it.
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KGB
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Re: Rear Wheel Slipping in Horizontal Dropouts

Postby KGB » Wed Jan 07, 2015 6:41 pm

Or run a chain tensioner.
Image

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Re: Rear Wheel Slipping in Horizontal Dropouts

Postby weldin_mike_27 » Wed Jan 07, 2015 7:03 pm

I know a guy who made his own torque wrench.

Excuse the intrusion but I always thought that nuts we only for BSO 's.

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Mulger bill
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Re: Rear Wheel Slipping in Horizontal Dropouts

Postby Mulger bill » Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:11 pm

You DON'T want QRs with horizontal dropouts Mike, thety can't clamp hard enough to prevent pulling the wheel under chain torque.
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Re: Rear Wheel Slipping in Horizontal Dropouts

Postby weldin_mike_27 » Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:45 pm

I really need a person with a bit of nouse to look at my bikes.

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HappyHumber
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Re: Rear Wheel Slipping in Horizontal Dropouts

Postby HappyHumber » Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:52 pm

OP wrote:I use a torque wrench to make sure the axle nuts...
weldin_mike_27 wrote:Are we talking quick release here?

This was more what I was having a dig at, Mike. ;)

Axle nuts & QRs are mutually exclusive. Unless you have one on the front wheel and the other on the back wheel. Although I'm sure some people do it; it's not really seen as "best practice" to use QR axles on fixed gear (rear) wheels They're subject to a lot more torque than the clamping action of of QRs can to hold.
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Gashead
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Re: Rear Wheel Slipping in Horizontal Dropouts

Postby Gashead » Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:08 pm

Thanks for the replies. No QR, using wheel nuts. I have a great habit of overtightening a lot of things (and usually breaking them) so hence I wanted to avoid that on the carbon frame. However agree that Al dropout should avoid that, so I'll just grab my normal socket wrench and do what I normally do.
The bike has a small wrench on it (fixed to the bottle cage nuts). Can't get that to the 40 Nm I was using with the torque wrench, hence I thought 40Nm was enough. Sounds like I can throw that away and use it as a bottle opener, which is on the other end of the wrench.
Any tricks in aligning the wheel when installing, or is it just a bit of patience?

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Re: Rear Wheel Slipping in Horizontal Dropouts

Postby weldin_mike_27 » Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:23 pm

Thanks as well. Anyone care to post a picture of a proper axle with nuts, I'm only familiar with the on bso's

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Mulger bill
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Re: Rear Wheel Slipping in Horizontal Dropouts

Postby Mulger bill » Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:45 pm

weldin_mike_27 wrote:Thanks as well. Anyone care to post a picture of a proper axle with nuts, I'm only familiar with the on bso's

Image
Taken from my review of the Reid Harrier FG bike.
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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Re: Rear Wheel Slipping in Horizontal Dropouts

Postby weldin_mike_27 » Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:00 am

Righto. I have got the wrong mental image. What do you do with the forward facing down tilted ones? Get a better qr skewer. Mines prolly worn.

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Derny Driver
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Re: Rear Wheel Slipping in Horizontal Dropouts

Postby Derny Driver » Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:40 am

Gashead wrote:Any tricks in aligning the wheel when installing, or is it just a bit of patience?

With your 15mm spanner in your right hand, shove your left hand between the tyre and the seat tube and push it back to tighten the chain. Hold it there in position, centre it by eye and tighten the chain side nut first. Check again that its still centred and tighten the non chain side nut. Spin the wheel and check the chain tension. If its good then give both nuts the strong arm treatment. If the chain is too slack or too tight then loosen them off and start again.

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Re: Rear Wheel Slipping in Horizontal Dropouts

Postby Gashead » Fri Jan 09, 2015 10:02 am

Thanks for that. Will give it a try.

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HappyHumber
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Re: Rear Wheel Slipping in Horizontal Dropouts

Postby HappyHumber » Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:26 pm

Wise words from Mr. Driver.

I think the description I read of the process that originally clicked with me is that you "walk" the wheel back, alternating quick & light 'cinching' up between the left and right nuts; eyeing chain tension & rim centre alignment. Once everything is good and sitting in situ how you want it, then snug both nuts properly down

It just takes a little bit of practice; and you develop a muscle-memory sorta technique. A generation or two worth of derailleured bikes with vertical drop outs & Quick releases has made people soft when it comes to mounting wheels.



Extra superfluous information which is probably more confusing than helpful right now: (absorb at your discretion)
When mounting a rear wheel I also make a point of checking where the high & low spots are on my chainring. Depending on the quality of the chainring and however imperceptibly out-of-round it can be you'll find with the drive side crank arm at different positions the chain will be tightest at one point and most slack at another. You'll learn with a given crank & ring combo at what point to have the arm at (say.. 12 o'clock... 4 o'clock etc etc) to achieve optimal chain tension. If you adjust the tension with the arm at its slackest point; you may find the chain will bind at the 'rings tightest point. Decent quality chainrings & cranks are less of a problem here.
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HappyHumber
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Re: Rear Wheel Slipping in Horizontal Dropouts

Postby HappyHumber » Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:48 pm

weldin_mike_27 wrote:Righto. I have got the wrong mental image. What do you do with the forward facing down tilted ones?


Principles of wheel installation with nutted axles is more or less the same as rearward facing, horizontal dropouts. It just means you insert the wheel from towards the front of the bike, rather than from the rear. One can be more trickier than the other, depending on what you're used to.

Mounting an un-broken chain is probably easier with the forward facing dropouts; but for both set-ups it's all a matter of initially cutting & joining the right chain length for the F+R teeth count you're running on that bike. There's several tricks & methods associated with this ... but I'll leave them for now; unless the question is actually asked ;)
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weldin_mike_27
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Re: Rear Wheel Slipping in Horizontal Dropouts

Postby weldin_mike_27 » Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:10 pm

Sweet. My biggest problem is that I take the wheels off every now and again and they don't always get put back on correctly. Might give everything a tune up "down there"

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Gordonhooker
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Re: Rear Wheel Slipping in Horizontal Dropouts

Postby Gordonhooker » Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:56 pm

Simple rule for single speed, tighten up the rear wheel nut as tight as possible.
OI onya bike!!!

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KGB
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Re: Rear Wheel Slipping in Horizontal Dropouts

Postby KGB » Sat Jan 10, 2015 12:00 pm

That's a bit extreme! Has to be pretty tight though, especially if the rider is clipped in for any type of standing start (traffic lights, racing, whatever).
Image

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HappyHumber
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Re: Rear Wheel Slipping in Horizontal Dropouts

Postby HappyHumber » Sat Jan 10, 2015 12:54 pm

Gordonhooker wrote:Simple rule for single speed, tighten up the rear wheel nut as tight as possible.


That's a bit too simple, in my opinion. Chain tension needs attention in the process.
Preaching by my own example, I threw a chain spinning downhill towards some traffic lights earlier in my fixed riding career. Locked both the cranks and wheel up halfway through the lights skidding to what I thought was, under the circumstances, a fairly dignified upright halt just on the other side of the lights. I did need to change my undies though.
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