Cruzbike Sofrider V2

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Hotdog
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Cruzbike Sofrider V2

Postby Hotdog » Fri Apr 04, 2008 4:57 pm

A very nice courier has just delivered my new toy, a Cruzbike Softrider V2 :D Something very different from my Baccheta Giro 26, this is a fully suspended moving bottom bracket front wheel drive bike.

Yes, I know new bikes aren't real until photos are posted :wink: I'll try to get some up tomorrow, in the meantime here's one from the Cruzbike website.

Image

It might be a little while until I comment at any length on this rather unusual recumbent, as I won't be riding it much for a while, unfortunately :( I'm still badly scraped up from my stack on the weekend, and I'm going away for a week to a conference on Sunday morning, and then I'll only be back in town for 3 days before going away for another week and bit for work. I'm going to have to be patient... :?

Hawkeye

Postby Hawkeye » Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:09 am

:shock: A front wheel drive bike! :lol:

FWIW, that bike or another like it might just have saved your butt if you'd been riding it the day of your crash. Reflecting on your description of what happened, it sounded a lot like the rear end might have broken traction because it caught some air instead of pavement as you passed over an undulation in the road surface.

If my (admittedly wildly speculative :oops: ) idea is somewhere in the ballpark, a little rear end droop travel would have allowed the lighter unspung mass of the wheel to drop down and maintain contact with the track while the rest of your bodyweight would have maintained inertia and sailed on blissfully unaware.

Would an air shock be a drop-in fit? Some damping would improve sure-footedness on rough pavement considerably.

But I get ahead of myself. :oops: First let us know what it's like to ride. 8)

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Postby Leigh_caines » Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:47 am

You’re going to have to be patient?
What about us? :(
We’re hanging to hear what a bent rider has to say about this Cruzrider…
Every review is written by someone who isn’t a bent rider [or they are people who are selling them}
I can’t wait to hear what you say after a 50k ride

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Postby Hotdog » Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:23 pm

Patience, patience...the first ride is in sight... :wink:

I'm stilll working horribly long days in a telescope control room about 500km away from my bikes, but I will be back in Sydney on Wednesday evening. Then I'll still need to finish assembling the Cruzbike, I've still got to attach the steerer extension, handlebars and seat, then set up the derailleurs and brakes, but it shouldn't take long. I fully expecting to be taking my first rides on the Cruzbike over the long weekend :)

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Postby mikeg » Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:47 pm

Anthony,

That's not at Siding Springs is it?

TimC originally from Melbourne, is a regular on aus.bicycle works there and lives in Connabarrabran.
Mike G.

CAMWEST member

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Postby Hotdog » Sun Apr 20, 2008 3:21 pm

mikeg wrote:Anthony,

That's not at Siding Springs is it?

TimC originally from Melbourne, is a regular on aus.bicycle works there and lives in Connabarrabran.
I am indeed at Siding Springs Observatory, fiddling around with the Anglo-Australian Telescope. TimC would be Tim Connors I assume, we both work for the Anglo-Australian Observatory however he's site staff while I'm based at the Sydney headquarters (most of the time). I would like to bring a bike here at some point, there's fantastic scenery and some serious hills, it'd be good riding.

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Postby Hotdog » Sat Apr 26, 2008 11:50 pm

Well, it's in one piece :) Still need to tweak the derailleurs a little and as of yet I really have no idea how best to adjust the seat, but that'll be best sorted out tomorrow morning when I take it for it's first ride :D

I imagine you lot'll be demanding photos now... :wink:

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Postby gsxrboy » Sun Apr 27, 2008 1:32 am

That goes without saying :)

But since you asked...

Pics !

(random side note) I was in Sydney last week and spent a few hours in Surry Hills, lovely place!

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Postby Hotdog » Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:27 pm

OK, at long last here's some pics :)
Image
Click on the photo for a link to a few more.

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Postby kukamunga » Sun Apr 27, 2008 3:12 pm

Excuse me for being ignorant or smart alec-ish, but that bent main frame looks like a 'department store' dually, whilst the front -end looks like a conventional bike rear triangle/ front fork combo. You sure this aint a home made job? :wink: Interested to hear how it rides.....

PS: I like how you used an [img] as a [url] link to your Flickr album. I must try it sometime.

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Postby Hotdog » Sun Apr 27, 2008 3:53 pm

kukamunga wrote:Excuse me for being ignorant or smart alec-ish, but that bent main frame looks like a 'department store' dually, whilst the front -end looks like a conventional bike rear triangle/ front fork combo. You sure this aint a home made job? :wink: Interested to hear how it rides.....
That's a pretty smart alec-ish comment, but I'll forgive you just this once :P

The frame is derived from an old Y-frame MTB design but has a longer wheelbase, 100mm dropout spacing at the rear to accept a standard front wheel and a lower standover height than the original. If you want to keep manufacturing costs down it makes sense to base your frame on an existing design so you can use existing tubing types and welding jigs.

The front triangle does resemble the rear triangle of an conventional bike for good reason, the tetrahedral structure used in both is very stiff which is good for power transfer. It's all custom components here though, a custom head shock fork with 135mm dropout spacing and derailleur hanger to accept a standard rear wheel, a telescoping front tube (for leg extension adjustments) and chain stays with pivots at both ends to allow for the movement of the telescoping front tube and the suspension.

As for how it rides, well, it's very different. The front wheel drive moving bottom bracket design means that pushing on the pedals creates steering inputs. After a few minutes you start to learn how to control the effect but it certainly feels very weird at first. In principle this link between pedaling and steering can be an advantage, the idea is that it enables your upper body to contribute for an extra burst of power when sprinting or climbing, much like the effect of standing on an upright bike.

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Postby Hotdog » Tue Apr 29, 2008 6:56 pm

Image
(click for bigger)

OK, I've now ridden the Cruzbike a couple of times and think I can give my first impressions.

My very first impressions were a little negative, I'm afraid. While it's fairly cheap as far as recumbents go I must admit that I was still a little disappointed by the quality of assembly and packaging of the bike as delivered. There was no Cruzbike documentation included, not even basic assembly instructions, all I got was a very old generic booklet telling me how to set up a rigid frame steel mountain bike with thumb shifters... The bike arrived largely assembled but assembled incorrectly, the seat mounting bracket was attached to the frame backwards, and the brakes were connected to the wrong levers (i.e. front brake to left hand lever). The packaging of the bike clearly doesn't offer enough protection for shipping either, my bike arrived with scratches down the left side of the frame, the stick-on rear brake cable clamp torn off and scratches on the left shifter casing. These were all cosmetic and/or easily fixed issues however I'd expected better with a $1300 bike.

Anyway, I was able to put the bike together in time for my first ride on Sunday morning. Two things were immediately apparent. Firstly, front wheel drive moving bottom bracket bikes feel really weird. Secondly, I clearly don't have this bike set up correctly yet as my knees keep hitting the handlebars. I'd initially set the seat up in a rather middling position, and given I'm roughly 6 feet tall I figured I probably needed to move the seat further back. Adjusting the seat on the Cruzbike isn't quick, it involves using both an Allen key and 10mm spanner to take out four nuts and bolts for the seat base to mounting bracket attachment and then removing another two Allen bolts which attach the mounting bracket to the frame. However with the seat further back (as in the photos earlier in this thread) I was able to just about keep my knees from hitting the bars and actually ride the bike. I was pleased to discover that I quickly got used to the link between pedalling and steering forces and within a few minutes was able to ride in straight lines with only a little bit of wobble. Cornering and starting off was a bit more uncertain, but no more so than the first time I rode a (more conventional) recumbent.

After that fairly pleasing first ride I appealed for advice on the Cruzbike forums on how to improve knee clearance, and received the somewhat counterintuitive suggestion that despite my height I actually wanted the seat as far forward as I could get it. Turns out that was correct though, with the seat moved forward up against the frame (see photo above) my knees ended up in front of the handlebars and able to move freely. I also made a few other adjustments to seat recline and handlebar and lever angle which improved the ergonomics considerably. When I discovered that the Radical Designs Solo Aero seat back bag that I use to carry stuff on my Bacchetta also fits the new Cruzbike I realised I could try the short commute between my girlfriend's place and work, so gave that a go this morning. I'm still a bit wobbly, but improving rapidly. The riding position feels powerful but I tired easily, though that may have something to do with not riding or getting any other exercise for roughly a month... I'm still not entirely comfortable on the bike, and haven't regained my previous fitness either, so any comparisons with the Bacchetta would be unfair. That said, I'm already suspecting there's a decent turn of speed in this thing.

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Cruzbike Seat

Postby Recycler » Mon May 05, 2008 4:06 pm

Howdy Hot Dog, Interesting impresions ! Reason for the brake lever mismatch is thats how the yanks have them, left hand drive. We were so interested, thought why buy when we can build. Check out snaps!
Would like to see more snaps of the seat as I have no idear how to make one. Keep us up dated.
Image
Image

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Postby Hotdog » Mon May 05, 2008 5:05 pm

Fair point about the brake "handedness" I suppose, though the last 'American' recumbent I bought had the brakes the right way round.

This photo, from the set linked to in the above images, gives a slightly better view of the seat.
Image
The structure consists of two sheets of pressed aluminium, formed into a curvy seat-like shape with deep rims around the edges to add stiffness.

The seat back is attached to the frame via a conventional seat post, there are saddle rails bolted to it which allow a normal saddle bracket to be used. The combination of seat post extension, bracket angle and bracket position along the rails allow for considerable adjustment.

The seat base bolts to the top tube via a mounting plate. The mounting plate has slightly complex curves, in the centre it's shaped to mate with the top tube whereas at the sides it lifts up to provide a curved surface for the seat base to attach to. There are a number of holes in the mounting plate, allowing it to be bolted to the top tube in 5 different fore-aft positions. There are also 4 positions in which you can bolt the seat base on and because of the curvature this adjusts both the fore-aft position of the seat base and its recline.

The seat base and the seat back plates are joined together with two bolts which pass through rubber grommets, which allowed some adjustment in the angle between the seat base and the seat back without going to the trouble of having a hinge.

The seat is finished off with some neat plastic trim around the edges of the seat and some nicely done seat pads. The pads seem to be made up of foam with a stiff backing, neatly encapsulated in a open weave material, and attached with velcro strips. They're apparently washable.

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Postby Hotdog » Wed May 14, 2008 6:06 pm

Hi Recycler, there are some better photos of the seat now in my Cruzbike photo album, which I took to show how a FastBack System Double Century hydration pack fits on it. They should make it easier to understand how the seat is constructed than my earlier written description did.

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Postby Leigh_caines » Thu May 29, 2008 3:07 pm

Hotdog… by now I guess you’ve ridden the new bike enough to give us recumbent riders an idea of if we should all be switching to front drive?
:)

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Postby Hotdog » Fri May 30, 2008 11:30 pm

Leigh_caines wrote:Hotdog… by now I guess you’ve ridden the new bike enough to give us recumbent riders an idea of if we should all be switching to front drive?
:)
Indeed I have, and the answer is a definite 'maybe' :wink:

There are some genuine advantages to the moving bottom bracket front wheel drive concept for a recumbent.

The tetrahedral structure of the front triangle is extremely stiff and that, together with the link between the steering and pedaling actions, means you can really hammer away with your whole body and feel like you're putting all the power down to the road. There's no hint of boom flex or give in the seat. The riding position is pretty 'closed' too, even more so when you sit up, and this is good for putting out power. Due to all this the bike does seem to sprint well as a result and you can push powerfully over crests, despite it being no lightweight.

While the MBB FWD configuration feels very strange at first, once you get used to it the feeling is actually very enjoyable. The pedal steer effect makes you feel very connected to the bike, it found myself thinking that this must be like that 'Zen thing' that fixie fanatics go on about :wink:

On the subject of getting used to it, the learning curve isn't that bad really, at least not for someone who's ridden other recumbents before. I was very quickly able to ride around in straight lines and comfortably start and stop. Getting the best out an MBB FWD is a different matter though, I think that requires a considerably longer adjustment period. Learning to ride hands off is a useful skill on this bike, not just a party trick, as it means your arms aren't fighting your feet anymore, and I'm not quite there yet. I can ride with light hands though, or one handed with only a bit of wobble, so I'm getting closer.

Another plus point is that you only have one standard length of chain, and no need for idlers, chain tubes or other chain management. Finally, with the handlebars turned right round to one side so the front triangle sits alongside the main frame the bike is very compact with makes storing or transporting the bike somewhat easier than other recumbents.

So far I've talked in deliberately general terms about MBB FWD, but I've got a few nice things to say about the Sofrider in particular too. Firstly, it's pretty good value for a recumbent. At around $1300 delivered it's one of the cheapest around, and yet you get a pretty decent level of componentry with it (SRAM X.5 shifters and a X.7 rear derailleur, for example). Dual suspension is a good feature too, while at this price point it's naturally a little rudimentary it is nice to have. This is a bike that can handle some light trail work and copes with potholed streets and drop kerbs well.

OK, so far all good but there are a few caveats. I think the main issue I've had is drive wheel traction. While you're riding up a steep hill the shift in the weight distribution towards the rear wheel actually reduces drive wheel traction, just when you need it the most. For grades of around 10% or more I've had problems with the front wheel slipping and on several occasions ended up walking, not because my legs had gone but because I'd simply lost grip. The issue is in fact largely one of technique however. After a while I learnt to sit up and hunch myself over the handlebars to move my weight as far forward as possible and concentrate on smoothing out my pedaling action so that now, with a bit of care, I am able to climb the short 10-15% pinches I encounter round here. I think my difficulties have been at least partly due to my tyres too, they're the Kenda Kwest 26x1.5"s that the bike came with and I'm not impressed with their grip. I can easily spin the front wheel when taking off from traffic lights if I'm not careful, even on level ground where the FWD shouldn't make much difference, and I'm no super strong sprinter. I plan to try out some other 26" slicks soon to see if they help. Basically, I now think the front wheel traction issue is in fact manageable. With decent tyres and a bit of experience you should be able to climb any slope that your legs and gears are good for, but riders who habitually climb up walls on a regular basis should be aware of the potential for difficulties.

There are one or two downsides specific to the Sofrider too, but I still think it's a good bike. For one thing, it's a little heavy at a nominal 15kgs but my Bacchetta is probably about the same. The handlebar arrangement could probably be a little better too, tall or short people are apparently OK but riders of intermediate height can have difficulty finding a set of handlebar and seat adjustments which doesn't result in their knees hitting the bars. I'm 6' tall and my knees just clear them, and I know of people on the forums that have had to change the stem to be able to ride their bike.

Overall the Cruzbike MBB FWD concept, while not without some issues, at least during the adjustment period, works very well. The Cruzbike Sofrider is a good value, versatile and fairly rugged recumbent which makes for a good commuter. I think it would tour well too. As far a performance is concerned, it is somewhat heavy and its upright seating position probably isn't the most aerodynamic around but it makes up for a lot of that with the power of the closed riding position. I think the most telling comment I can make is that now I've gotten used to a Sofrider I find myself dreaming about a Silvio... :) Maybe if I get that new job I've got my eye on... :wink:

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Postby Leigh_caines » Sat May 31, 2008 4:14 am

Thank you
Nice report :)
I'll go around Monday and lean on Recycler to finish the one he's making so as I can have a ride.
Dose sound like most of the problems you've come up with are fixable
Start with a lighter bike
Bars out of the way of feet
Thanks again

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Postby Hotdog » Sat May 31, 2008 6:58 am

Leigh_caines wrote:Thank you
Nice report :)
Thanks :)
I'll go around Monday and lean on Recycler to finish the one he's making so as I can have a ride.
Dose sound like most of the problems you've come up with are fixable
Start with a lighter bike
Bars out of the way of feet
Thanks again
Yep, light is good and handlebar/leg clearance is obviously important. The other things I'd suggest bearing in mind for Recycler's build project is that you want the seat as far forward as practical, both to make sure there's plenty of weight over the front wheel and also to have the hips as close to the steering axis as they can be. The second point is so that you can turn the handlebars a decent way round and while keeping your feet attached to the pedals. A low seat would also be good as it would reduce the rearward weight transfer on hills, but you're probably limited by the frame there.
Last edited by Hotdog on Sat May 31, 2008 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Hotdog » Sat May 31, 2008 1:43 pm

Another quick comment on wheelspin and tyres, last night I decided to test my theory that Kenda Kwests are a heap of sh*te and not having any other tyres handy (apart from some more Kenda Kwests that came with my Bacchetta...) I 'borrowed' the Continental City Contact 26x1.75"s from my girlfriend's bike so I could try them... :roll:

This morning I gave then a good workout by going on the Bike North North to West Head ride. Despite not being especially high performance tyres the Conti's gave me much better grip, and while I still needed to practice good technique I didn't have any problems with wheelspin, and this ride includes plenty of serious steep bits (such as the top end of Kissing Point Road, which has a maximum grade of 17% :shock:).

So, basically, the take home lesson is if you buy a Sofrider bin the Kenda Kwests immediately and get some decent slicks on there instead. Provided you do that then with a bit of practice you should be be able to learn to climb any grade you've got the legs/gears for.

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Postby Leigh_caines » Sat May 31, 2008 4:46 pm

Hotdog …
Made a note of all your points… thanks again.
I’m a thinking… Yeah I know that usually cost
That after I try out the one Bob’s making… if I like it…
I have a cheapo 20inch wheeled folder that has suspension and looking at it seems possible to sit close to front wheel… it’s not a heavy bike… has good slick tiers…
With the right gears it might end up like a low FWD…
I’ll keep thinking
:roll:

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Hotdog
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Postby Hotdog » Sat May 31, 2008 5:49 pm

Leigh_caines wrote:Hotdog …
Made a note of all your points… thanks again.
I’m a thinking… Yeah I know that usually cost
That after I try out the one Bob’s making… if I like it…
I have a cheapo 20inch wheeled folder that has suspension and looking at it seems possible to sit close to front wheel… it’s not a heavy bike… has good slick tiers…
With the right gears it might end up like a low FWD…
I’ll keep thinking
:roll:
Interesting idea. There's been a the odd bit of discussion on the Cruzbike forums about using the Cruzbike conversion kit to turn a folder into a FWD, but as far as I know no one has actually done it yet.

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Postby johntolhurst » Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:48 pm

Hotdog wrote:There's been a the odd bit of discussion ... about using the Cruzbike conversion kit to turn a folder into a FWD, but as far as I know no one has actually done it yet.
Google 'folding cruzbike'

John Tolhurst

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Hotdog
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Postby Hotdog » Tue Jun 03, 2008 10:49 am

johntolhurst wrote:
Hotdog wrote:There's been a the odd bit of discussion ... about using the Cruzbike conversion kit to turn a folder into a FWD, but as far as I know no one has actually done it yet.
Google 'folding cruzbike'
I stand corrected :)

Hi John, welcome to the forum.

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Postby vonhazza » Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:06 pm

Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:57 pm Post subject: Cruzbike Sofrider V2

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A very nice courier has just delivered my new toy, a Cruzbike Softrider V2 Something very different from my Baccheta Giro 26, this is a fully suspended moving bottom bracket front wheel drive bike.


Hi Hotdog I have a Cruzbike kit that I have built up myself but I would be interested in your opinion as to the differences in riding style between your 2 bikes as I am thinking of a second bent and the Baccheta 26 is one of the bikes I am looking at, I am also considering the V2 as it would be lighter and have a lower seat that my current Cruzbike.
I see that the Baccheta has a much higher Bottom Bracket than the Cruz I imagen that would be more aerodinamic but is it as comfortable as the Cruz.

regards Steve.

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