Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby find_bruce » Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:03 pm

The difficulty as I see it is that you are talking about marginal gains, to use Team Sky's words - 46 seconds over say 14 non-flat stages, so you don't need a big improvement to make all the difference.

To be a performance based trigger you would need a test that's extremely sensitive, otherwise you end up with the same system as the hematocrit test, set the level too high & people dope with impunity right up to that level. Set it too low & innocent athletes can get rubbed out.

The other problem is the use of doping to aid recovery - we have all seen cyclists dig deep to win a stage & then pay for it the next day - if the good performance is within the range, the improvement in your bad day won't be detected.

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:43 pm

The idea is not as a comparison to other riders in a race but to track an individual’s performance over time and see if any performances don’t fit within trend parameters using a critical power model approach to assessment.

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby AUbicycles » Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:25 am

For the sake of documenting followed by an open admission that I have not readup deeply, I understand that the latest events in the Froome doping saga is that thousans of pages of data have been submitted in a response that is understood as delaying tactics to allow Froome to compete in the 2018 Tour de France.

The amount of data and necessary time to process and evaluate being suggested in social media commentry as just buying time and discrediting this particular test.

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby MichaelB » Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:10 am

And as long as that takes, the appeal will surely follow as well and take even longer ......

Love to know how much this has cost Sky (Legal $$) as well as damage to the brand.

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby find_bruce » Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:25 am

1500 pages sounds like a lot, but its not really. I just checked an expert report I have used in relation to urine testing & that 1 report is 683 pages long - 14 pages of report setting out his opinion, 10 pages of CV & publications list, 659 pages of annexures being the scientific papers that formed the basis for his opinion.

It is highly likely that any expert in the field will be familiar with (a) the work of other experts in their field & (2) the scientific publications. The real issue is usually the conclusions to be drawn from those publications.

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby MichaelB » Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:30 pm

Agree with the % of actual content, BUT, they'll have to read all of it and understand (and challenge if needs be) to make sure that the inferences formed are in fact, correct, or don't start identifying a duck as a goose, just because they both have beaks.

Once they have done that, then they have to argue in court with handbags at 50 paces.

Eventually, they'll get tired and a decision will be made. Either way, the other side will appeal, and out come the experts again with their handbags, and it's worse than an 80% off sale at Jimmy Choo's !!

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:12 pm

In other news, this paper was released yesterday.

The Critical Power Model as a Potential Tool for Anti-doping

Have been chatting online with a couple of the authors. It's complex and nuanced and without a strong grasp on the nature of the modelling parts of it will be a bit hard to comprehend for many, but it also has some pretty useful information summarising the critical power model for anyone interested.

I think it may spark further research but any form of inclusion of this methodology as a supplement to other data, e.g bio-passport, would be many years away, if ever. I still think there are too many hurdles but that's just my opinion.

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby AUbicycles » Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:14 pm

find_bruce wrote:I just checked an expert report I have used in relation to urine testing & that 1 report is 683 pages long - 14 pages of report setting out his opinion, 10 pages of CV & publications list, 659 pages of annexures being the scientific papers that formed the basis for his opinion.


So did you get the all-clear or need another checkup?
All I will say is that I warned you about the asparagus.

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby MichaelB » Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:40 pm

AUbicycles wrote:All I will say is that I warned you about the asparagus.


Add Beetroot to that list as well. Can be a bit of a shock if you forget about it !!! But a big relief when you remember !!

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby find_bruce » Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:35 pm

AUbicycles wrote:So did you get the all-clear or need another checkup?
All I will say is that I warned you about the asparagus.

:D The horse was found not guilty, but the trainer got 2 years

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Thoglette » Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:54 pm

Apparently,
Chris Froome has been denied fair process, says Lizzie Deignan

Nothing new : complaining that the results were leaked. (Fair enough).
Stop handing them the stick! - Dave Moulton
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby biker jk » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:50 pm

Thoglette wrote:Apparently,
Chris Froome has been denied fair process, says Lizzie Deignan

Nothing new : complaining that the results were leaked. (Fair enough).


Ah, Lizzie, she who missed three out of competition tests, one of which she hid in her hotel room, another for which she refuses to disclose the reason. And she talks about anti-doping needing to be more transparent. :roll:

All failed tests should be publicly announced, as should TUE's. If it weren't for Fancy Bears we would never have known that Wiggins used corticosteroids to win the TdF.

Froome's biography never mentioned he had asthma but soon after its publication he was spotted with a puffer. More transparency from Froome and Sky would be helpful.

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby MichaelB » Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:02 am


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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby AUbicycles » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:55 am

“He hasn’t had a fair process because already people have made up their minds unfortunately, and that is not based on the full story,” Deignan said. “Unfortunately for Chris his reputation is tarnished and will be for ever. Whether he’s innocent or not, it’s kind of irrelevant to some people at this stage. A leak in a legal process should never happen.”


Yes and no. But really she should be complaining just to the hackers who stole / leaked the data and not to anyone else. Just because the public now know that Froome had positive doping tests and that the most obvious explanation is that he is guilty of cheating doesn't mean that the public are responsible for an 'unfair process' or that cycling fans and media are responding unfairly.

We know that the system is broken and as a (weary) cycling fan I don't see why failed tests need to be kept secret. I can understand that it is reasonable to create a small window - but allowing months and months and allowing competition after a failed test doesn't seem right.

As a professional athlete, testing is a necessary burden because too many people cheated in the past and too many people continue to cheat. The clean athletes have to pay the price but also should be proactive in supporting the anti-doping activities because it is meant to work to their own benefit by allowing fairer competition.

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby biker jk » Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:40 am

MichaelB wrote:Seems like the innocent :roll: Dr Freeman is now publishing a book on "a new integrated performance health management and coaching model has supported some of our great sporting heroes in achieving their goals." .

Really ........


Lucky for him that he didn't lose the laptop containing the manuscript.

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby fat and old » Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:28 am

biker jk wrote:
MichaelB wrote:Seems like the innocent :roll: Dr Freeman is now publishing a book on "a new integrated performance health management and coaching model has supported some of our great sporting heroes in achieving their goals." .

Really ........


Lucky for him that he didn't lose the laptop containing the manuscript.


It was covered, he had a dropbox to store it.

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby MichaelB » Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:04 pm

fat and old wrote:
biker jk wrote:
MichaelB wrote:Seems like the innocent :roll: Dr Freeman is now publishing a book on "a new integrated performance health management and coaching model has supported some of our great sporting heroes in achieving their goals." .

Really ........


Lucky for him that he didn't lose the laptop containing the manuscript.


It was covered, he had a dropbox to store it.


Probably had a printout, and that he had to retype it is why it took so long for it to come out ..... :roll:

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby biker jk » Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:10 pm

MichaelB wrote:
fat and old wrote:
biker jk wrote:
Lucky for him that he didn't lose the laptop containing the manuscript.


It was covered, he had a dropbox to store it.


Probably had a printout, and that he had to retype it is why it took so long for it to come out ..... :roll:


I believe he had a Typing Up Exemption so had his PA type it.

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby biker jk » Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:25 pm

Anti-doping expert Robin Parisotto on Team Sky and TUEs.

There was the parliamentary inquiry into Team Sky and the use of supposedly legitimate medicines, normally banned but permissible under a TUE system. Those investigating concluded that the team was using it for performance gains, to get an edge on others. Did that give you concern?

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, whenever there’s an inquiry and the allegations put forward are challenged by them, are rebutted by them, it’s almost sort of a script. ‘Ah, we’ve lost the data.’ Or, ‘the data has been misplaced,’ or ‘the data has been corrupted.’ I mean, for God’s sake, give me a break.

It is always the same response in any enquiry, and it’s just a joke. If people are legitimate about, let’s say TUEs or medical problems or medical diagnoses and supposed treatments, then show us the records.

Unless you have a communicable disease or a disease that the athletes have that’s embarrassing for them. But, if I’m an asthmatic, I don’t really care if someone else knows that I’m an asthmatic. Or if I have diabetes, I don’t care too much if someone else knows I have got diabetes.

And this thing of hiding behind the wall of privacy…it should be part of the athlete’s appointment charter, almost. That if you are going to go down the road of TUEs, be aware that you are going to have to make a public announcement that you are required to take these drugs because of this reason.

It’s a farce. It’s a farce.


https://cyclingtips.com/2018/06/casting-a-critical-eye-on-corruption-in-sport-qa-with-anti-doping-expert-robin-parisotto/

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby find_bruce » Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:04 pm

Interesting to see the UCI make the decision to ban Trammadol & further limit glucocorticoids independently of WADA. It will be interesting to see how WADA reacts as any move away from the WADA list may be perceived as a threat to their power & control

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby fat and old » Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:58 am

I was stunned by the UCI's decision to ban spray on Sky. It's just not fair!

http://www.velonews.com/2018/06/news/uc ... -tt_468897

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby AUbicycles » Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:00 pm

The Velonews author hadn’t taken any speed balls or wind bubbles when writing that piece... it was all over the place.

Sounds like April 1st but there is still no clearcut approach by the UCI.

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby DavidS » Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:13 pm

Aerodynamic aids allowed on skinsuits for Sky but Gel not allowed for Lotto. Do they seriously wonder why people get upset about inconsistency?

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:07 am

DavidS wrote:Aerodynamic aids allowed on skinsuits for Sky but Gel not allowed for Lotto. Do they seriously wonder why people get upset about inconsistency?

DS

The suits used are not unique to Sky (they were not even the first to use them) and the ruling is consistent.

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby fat and old » Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:30 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
DavidS wrote:Aerodynamic aids allowed on skinsuits for Sky but Gel not allowed for Lotto. Do they seriously wonder why people get upset about inconsistency?

DS

The suits used are not unique to Sky (they were not even the first to use them) and the ruling is consistent.


Consistent with what Alex? Has there been other examples of a spray or paint on surface?

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