race tactics explained

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jules21
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race tactics explained

Postby jules21 » Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:44 am

can anyone explain race tactics in the Tour - particularly in the mountains?

when Contador attacked and Armstrong held back, Phil Liggett was saying he was playing the good teammate.

when Armstrong counter-attacked and tried to catch back up, Liggett was lauding Armstrong coming to the aid of his teammate.

i've followed competitive cycling for a long time now and done some racing myself, but I don't get it. sometimes it seems like they're just making this stuff up.

another one - i've watched lead out men on the mountains - Stuey O'Grady for example - "doing the work". there isn't much of an aerodynamic advantage of being on someone's wheel in the mountains, so how does it help your teammate? i know with Saxobank the idea is to just keep the pace high in the hope Contadaor will have an off day, that makes sense, but other than that - i don't see the advantage.

I heard Phil Liggett say that it was better to stay in front on the hills - as you can set your own pace, rather than at the leader's.

am i crazy for thinking that in the mountains - you just ride at the pace you can handle and tactics have little impact?

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Re: race tactics explained

Postby Tale » Sat Jul 25, 2009 11:47 am

I think you're talking about stage 17, which started with Contador in yellow, Armstrong 2nd, with Wiggins, Kloden and the Schleck brothers close behind in the GC.

The Schlecks attacked on the last hill, so Contador and his teammate Kloden went with them. Due to positioning at the time, Armstrong got left behind with Wiggins. He tried to attack, but Wiggins followed. So Armstrong played the good teammate by slowing down, tucking in behind Wiggins and making Wiggins do all the work, while Contador, Kloden and the Schlecks gained time on Wiggins, pushing him back down the GC and reducing his threat to Contador. This was sacrifice by Armstrong, because he was losing all the time Wiggins was losing.

Meanwhile up ahead, Contador did something dumb. He tried to attack the Schlecks. The Schlecks were the ones with something to gain, not Contador, so he should have just stayed behind them. The effect was that his teammate Kloden got dropped instead of the Schlecks, hurting Astana. Because that meant the Schlecks would come up the GC as Kloden lost time.

Behind them, eventually Wiggins got tired and Armstrong was able to drop him. This was also good teamwork, because Kloden was on his own up ahead, and Armstrong was then able to catch up and work with Kloden to minimise their time losses.

The end result was Wiggins dropped down the GC due to Armstrong's tactics, but Astana pretty much lost their chance at a 1-2-3 podium finish (Contador-Armstrong-Kloden) due to Contador disobeying team tactics, which dragged the Schlecks higher up the GC.
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Re: race tactics explained

Postby toolonglegs » Sat Jul 25, 2009 3:12 pm

I think the simple fact is Astana isn't really a "team" should answer your question :lol: .

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Re: race tactics explained

Postby jules21 » Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:46 pm

Tale wrote: So Armstrong played the good teammate by slowing down, tucking in behind Wiggins and making Wiggins do all the work,
Tale wrote: This was also good teamwork, because Kloden was on his own up ahead, and Armstrong was then able to catch up and work with Kloden to minimise their time losses.
these are the bits i don't understand. how is someone doing more work when they are in front of another rider, on an HC climb? how was Armstrong working with Kloden?

i understand how that works on flat road - the estimate is 15-30% less work when you're tucked in behind, but that doesn't apply when you're griding out the low gears on a mountain.

when you're on a steep climb, aren't you really just on your own? i can't see how one rider's actions can impact on another's, yet the commentators talk that way all the time as if they're slipstreaming each other.

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Re: race tactics explained

Postby othy » Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:01 pm

jules21 wrote:
Tale wrote: So Armstrong played the good teammate by slowing down, tucking in behind Wiggins and making Wiggins do all the work,
Tale wrote: This was also good teamwork, because Kloden was on his own up ahead, and Armstrong was then able to catch up and work with Kloden to minimise their time losses.
these are the bits i don't understand. how is someone doing more work when they are in front of another rider, on an HC climb? how was Armstrong working with Kloden?

i understand how that works on flat road - the estimate is 15-30% less work when you're tucked in behind, but that doesn't apply when you're griding out the low gears on a mountain.

when you're on a steep climb, aren't you really just on your own? i can't see how one rider's actions can impact on another's, yet the commentators talk that way all the time as if they're slipstreaming each other.
I don't think you realise just how fast these guys are climbing. They are still going quick enough for it to have an impact.

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Re: race tactics explained

Postby jasimon » Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:13 pm

othy wrote:I don't think you realise just how fast these guys are climbing. They are still going quick enough for it to have an impact.
How quickly are they climbing? Up, say, Verbier, or any old 10% slope?

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Re: race tactics explained

Postby rustychisel » Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:25 pm

20~25kmh, all the way. Contador would have tipped over 30kmh on 9% gradient during his 'attacks'.

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Re: race tactics explained

Postby jules21 » Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:28 pm

Marco Pantani climbed the 13.2 km Alpe D'Huez in 36:50, which is 21.5km/h.

i suppose there is some advantage at those speeds.

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Re: race tactics explained

Postby nickobec » Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:35 pm

Tale wrote:The end result was Wiggins dropped down the GC due to Armstrong's tactics, but Astana pretty much lost their chance at a 1-2-3 podium finish (Contador-Armstrong-Kloden) due to Contador disobeying team tactics, which dragged the Schlecks higher up the GC.
That makes some pretty big assumptions, if Contador did not attack and stayed with Kloden when the Schleks attacked and got 2 minutes clear. And say Wiggins managed to stay with Armstrong and even got up to Kloden and Contador. At the end of stage 17 A Schlek in yellow, F Schlek, A Contador 30 sec back and few seconds separating Wiggens, Armstrong and Kloden another 30 seconds back. So stage 18 ITT goes pretty much as what happened/expected except Wiggins and F Schlek did a little better and AC flatted and only finished 20th. Which mean Wiggins in yellow, A Schlek 30 sec behind and everybody else Contador, Armstrong, Kloden and F Schlek 30 seconds further back. Which means an interesting Mont Ventoux stage for us, but unlikely a 1-2-3 finsh for Team Astana and worse case scenario not even finish on the podium.

IMHO reason AC disobeyed orders and attacked is he wants to win not finish 2nd or 3rd behind LA and/or AK in team JB + LA 1-2-3 finish. Because even to an outsider like me, Team Astana is Johan Bruyneel's team and JB's favourite is Lance Armstrong's and he appears to be plotting to get LA his 8th victory over almost anything else, including risking winning the TdF with another rider, particularly one his does not get on with.

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Re: race tactics explained

Postby Dial » Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:37 pm

As mentioned, the speeds these guys ride up hill, having someone up front must help. Its also nice to have a second rider there to swap bikes if you have a mechanical.

I think people are being a bit tough on Contador. If he had have cracked Andy and Frank and then Kloden paced back up. It would have been "great tactics by Astana". It was a gamble which didn't pay off and at the end of the day, Kloden had to beat the Schlecks at some stage to get on the podium.

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Re: race tactics explained

Postby sandman » Mon Jul 27, 2009 2:59 pm

Tale wrote:I think you're talking about stage 17, which started with Contador in yellow, Armstrong 2nd, with Wiggins, Kloden and the Schleck brothers close behind in the GC.

The Schlecks attacked on the last hill, so Contador and his teammate Kloden went with them. Due to positioning at the time, Armstrong got left behind with Wiggins. He tried to attack, but Wiggins followed. So Armstrong played the good teammate by slowing down, tucking in behind Wiggins and making Wiggins do all the work, while Contador, Kloden and the Schlecks gained time on Wiggins, pushing him back down the GC and reducing his threat to Contador. This was sacrifice by Armstrong, because he was losing all the time Wiggins was losing.

Meanwhile up ahead, Contador did something dumb. He tried to attack the Schlecks. The Schlecks were the ones with something to gain, not Contador, so he should have just stayed behind them. The effect was that his teammate Kloden got dropped instead of the Schlecks, hurting Astana. Because that meant the Schlecks would come up the GC as Kloden lost time.

Behind them, eventually Wiggins got tired and Armstrong was able to drop him. This was also good teamwork, because Kloden was on his own up ahead, and Armstrong was then able to catch up and work with Kloden to minimise their time losses.

The end result was Wiggins dropped down the GC due to Armstrong's tactics, but Astana pretty much lost their chance at a 1-2-3 podium finish (Contador-Armstrong-Kloden) due to Contador disobeying team tactics, which dragged the Schlecks higher up the GC.
Tale....thats exactly the way I saw it, good sumation ;-)

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Re: race tactics explained

Postby sogood » Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:29 pm

toolonglegs wrote:I think the simple fact is Astana isn't really a "team" should answer your question :lol: .
You cynic! :mrgreen:
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Re: race tactics explained

Postby sogood » Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:33 pm

jules21 wrote:these are the bits i don't understand. how is someone doing more work when they are in front of another rider, on an HC climb? how was Armstrong working with Kloden?
...
when you're on a steep climb, aren't you really just on your own? i can't see how one rider's actions can impact on another's, yet the commentators talk that way all the time as if they're slipstreaming each other.
Riding behind someone has more benefits than plain aero drafting. When you are tired, it's mentally easier to follow the pace of another than setting your own pace. You will notice this subtle effect if you've ever been pushed to the limit. That's another reason why they talk about pacing another rider. It works.
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Re: race tactics explained

Postby twizzle » Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:40 pm

nickobec wrote: That makes some pretty big assumptions, if Contador did not attack and stayed with Kloden when the Schleks attacked and got 2 minutes clear.
Was never going to happen. If the Schlecks attacked, fine - respond. But by attacking them, he forced them to respond, and in the end all he did was cost his team mates time in the GC.
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Re: race tactics explained

Postby Zynster » Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:45 pm

I think AC's attack was just an 'in the moment' thing. You could see that he knew that he'd blew it when he kept looking back for Kloden. Mind you, I suspect that if Kloden dropped off from AC's attack, there's a good chance he would have dropped on the next Shleck bros attack anyway.

I wonder if guilt was a factor in him gifting the stage to Frank.
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Re: race tactics explained

Postby didge » Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:37 pm

I'd imagine it could get pretty blustery on those mountains as well, slipstreaming someone would allow you some respite from the wind.

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Re: race tactics explained

Postby RICHARDH » Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:06 pm

TLL is right, given what has seemed to come out over the past 24 hours or so its clear that Astana were in fact a fractured team. I dont think AC was trying to drop Kloden but he was trying to win a race with a DS that seemed more worried about another rider so was trying to distance himself from not just other teams but his own team mates aswell. I personally dont think LA rode a great supportive race and in fact seemed to be pulling other riders back at some stages. Im glad that Armstrong will be in his own team and AC in his, i think this will provide a better race than them riding on the same team. Off topic a little but i wonder how the recruiting will go considering how the last LA backed team got dissolved it seemed like LA got bored ( or upset with certain people) and packed up his toys and went home. How many riders will be thinking "whats a bet after next year the team will be gone?"
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Re: race tactics explained

Postby roller » Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:10 pm

nickobec wrote: That makes some pretty big assumptions, if Contador did not attack and stayed with Kloden when the Schleks attacked and got 2 minutes clear. And say Wiggins managed to stay with Armstrong and even got up to Kloden and Contador. At the end of stage 17 A Schlek in yellow, F Schlek, A Contador 30 sec back and few seconds separating Wiggens, Armstrong and Kloden another 30 seconds back. So stage 18 ITT goes pretty much as what happened/expected except Wiggins and F Schlek did a little better and AC flatted and only finished 20th. Which mean Wiggins in yellow, A Schlek 30 sec behind and everybody else Contador, Armstrong, Kloden and F Schlek 30 seconds further back. Which means an interesting Mont Ventoux stage for us, but unlikely a 1-2-3 finsh for Team Astana and worse case scenario not even finish on the podium.

IMHO reason AC disobeyed orders and attacked is he wants to win not finish 2nd or 3rd behind LA and/or AK in team JB + LA 1-2-3 finish. Because even to an outsider like me, Team Astana is Johan Bruyneel's team and JB's favourite is Lance Armstrong's and he appears to be plotting to get LA his 8th victory over almost anything else, including risking winning the TdF with another rider, particularly one his does not get on with.
agree x 10

imho contador took control of the tour & cemented his victory.

his team should have been doing cartwheels because they (as a team) were going to win the TDF.

instead they seemed put out that "lance might not get 2nd".

which is ridiculous.
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Re: race tactics explained

Postby vitualis » Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:26 pm

I disagree.

I think that it was clear that AC was going to win the tour by that stage barring any disasters given his time advantage and his form. If he were a team player, the goal would have been to pull the other Astana riders into the minor placings. That attack would have only made sense from a team perspective if it were co-ordinated with Kloden, which it clearly wasn't. Effectively, all that it achieved was that it pulled the Schleks up the rankings and dropping his Astana team members.

From AC's personal perspective, the attack makes sense as it did cement his victory but it was at the cost of his team. As per the others, AC was clearly not a team player in this year's tour. I agree that he was the best rider with frankly freakish performance up the mountains but I found it hard to respect him especially when you compare it to the team work from Columbia HTC and Saxobank.

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Re: race tactics explained

Postby jules21 » Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:08 pm

sogood wrote:Riding behind someone has more benefits than plain aero drafting. When you are tired, it's mentally easier to follow the pace of another than setting your own pace. You will notice this subtle effect if you've ever been pushed to the limit. That's another reason why they talk about pacing another rider. It works.
i agree with that, but i heard Phil LIggett (or Paul Sherwen, I forget) at one point claiming (on a steep climb) that it's easier to ride in front and set your own pace than to try and follow someone else. that's having a bet each way isn't it?

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Re: race tactics explained

Postby nickobec » Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:15 am

nickobec wrote:That makes some pretty big assumptions, if Contador did not attack and stayed with Kloden when the Schleks attacked and got 2 minutes clear.

That was about JB comment that he told AC to stay with AK if the Schleks attacked.

That in my opinion would of been throwing the yellow jersey away. AC only had 2:20 on AS and AS could of got that time and been able to grabbed the yellow. Don't forget AS clawed 15 seconds back from AC on the last part of Verbier.
roller wrote: imho contador took control of the tour & cemented his victory.


Agree totally.

AC pre-empted a schlek attack, IMHO not to distance AK, that was a bonus, but to put enough time between himself and LA to make sure he was the No. 1 on Astana.

At a steady pace it is easier to follow somebody up a mountain, for example LA following Wiggins stage 17 or AC towing Alejandro Valverde to catch Cadel on Mont Ventoux final stage Dauphine Libere 2009.

It is the quick accelerating attacks destroy any advantage of being tucked into the slipstream.

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Re: race tactics explained

Postby sogood » Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:08 am

vitualis wrote:I disagree.

I think that it was clear that AC was going to win the tour by that stage barring any disasters given his time advantage and his form. If he were a team player...
+1.

Need to bear in mind that AC is a paid employee of Astana and JB is the boss in the outfit. Disobeying team instruction and damaging other riders' chances at a time when he already has a winning margin can be easily argued to be unprofessional and selfish. His attack took away any chance of Kloden getting on the podium, a fellow rider's glory and potential income stream. And never forget they are career riders who are there to earn money in the millions.
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Re: race tactics explained

Postby sogood » Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:14 am

nickobec wrote:That was about JB comment that he told AC to stay with AK if the Schleks attacked.

That in my opinion would of been throwing the yellow jersey away...
All pure speculation! The only fact is that AC attacked and put Kloden out of contention. You don't murder your own family member, you defend them. Just goes to show that AC probably has greater ego problem than LA. He is a paid employee of Astana and should adhere to team instructions. If he doesn't want to, then he can contest the TdF by himself and do the "TTT" by himself. His dismissal of the Astana team in his victory is further evidence of his problem.
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Re: race tactics explained

Postby rob e » Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:42 am

sogood wrote:
nickobec wrote:That was about JB comment that he told AC to stay with AK if the Schleks attacked.

That in my opinion would of been throwing the yellow jersey away...
All pure speculation! The only fact is that AC attacked and put Kloden out of contention. You don't murder your own family member, you defend them. Just goes to show that AC probably has greater ego problem than LA. He is a paid employee of Astana and should adhere to team instructions. If he doesn't want to, then he can contest the TdF by himself and do the "TTT" by himself. His dismissal of the Astana team in his victory is further evidence of his problem.
LOL.

AC was undisputed Team Leader at Astana, then Captain America decides to come out of retirement and team up with his old mate the Hog........remember it was just to raise cancer awareness and to ride the Giro? and then LA was going to ride in support of AC? and then its we will see who is strongest? and then give me some respect i've won this race 7 times and i am here to win??

The Hog and Old Tex show dicked AC around something wicked.........they deserve nothing from him. He had to stamp his authority on the race.

Since when did LA do anything for any of his team mates in the USPS/DISCO days??? NEVER. If Kloden wanted to place on the podium he would back himself as a GC rider instead of prostituting himself as a Super domestique.......but he doesnt want the pressure of being a leader. This is all just LA using the media to his own advantage as usual, and you guys lap it up.

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Re: race tactics explained

Postby RICHARDH » Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:40 pm

I seem to remmeber that during that stage Contador was riding infront of Kloden the whole stage if Kloden couldnt keep up when AC had basically played domestique then he wasnt going to stay with them much longer the Schlecks were always going to attack. And in the end lets face it F & A Schleck were going to get time on other stages, what if find unbelievable is that people are having a go at a rider having a go. As far as Johan saying there wasnt any team orders to attack,well there werent on the Verbier either so exactly when was AC suppose to attack ? It seems to me that there was one rider being thought of when team man. thought out the next days tactics and it wasnt AC. The fact that AC won in a enviroment like this boads well for him next year when he has a team built aroun HIM.
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