Vinokourov out of the tour - from one crisis to another
- gdl_gdl
- Posts: 784
- Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 7:41 am
- Location: Mindarie, Perth
- europa
- Posts: 7334
- Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:51 am
- Location: southern end of Adelaide - home of hills, fixies and drop bears
Postby europa » Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:30 am
And cycling cops another black eye - I heard about it on the ABC which manages to remain very neutral, but you can hear the cycling critics gloating.
Let's analyse my feelings - there's disappointment, disappointment, disappoinment and, I'm probably a bit disppointed as well.
Richard
- europa
- Posts: 7334
- Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:51 am
- Location: southern end of Adelaide - home of hills, fixies and drop bears
Postby europa » Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:53 am
bikeboy wrote:Hi everyone. I was quite shoked this morning when I woke and came across the news that Alexander Vinokourov has tested positive to blood doping, although that given the sports reputation the last few years, theres a part of me that is not that surprised. Its still upsetting, especially when Cadel Evans came second to the guy in question in the time trial. Im sure Cadel is over the moon!!
Anyway I just want to ask ( Im quite new to the sport so bear with me on this) what is the advantage of blood doping? So far I understand that its injecting someone elses compatable blood into you. But obviously the blood is enhanced somewhat. So why wouldnt the rider just take the performance enhancing drugs himself. Whats the advantage of injecting someone elses blood?
Would love to hear some feed back.
Thanks guys. Loving the TDF by the way!!
- europa
- Posts: 7334
- Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:51 am
- Location: southern end of Adelaide - home of hills, fixies and drop bears
Postby europa » Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:54 am
tuco wrote:Without doing a google search I thought it involved removing your own blood, removing all but the red blood cells (the oxygen carriers) and then injecting it back in at a later date. I could be wrong though.
I also thought that high altitude training effectively increased red blood cell count also.
- Kalgrm
- Super Mod
- Posts: 9653
- Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 5:21 pm
- Location: Success, WA
- Contact:
Postby Kalgrm » Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:00 am
I'm not sure why it's considered dangerous, but it is certainly unethical.
Cheers,
Graeme
---------------------
Music was better when ugly people were allowed to make it ....
- europa
- Posts: 7334
- Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:51 am
- Location: southern end of Adelaide - home of hills, fixies and drop bears
Postby europa » Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:02 am
Richard
- tuco
- Posts: 2016
- Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:36 pm
Postby tuco » Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:03 am
Both types of transfusion can be dangerous because of the risk of infection and the potential toxicity of improperly stored blood. Homologous transfusions present the additional risks of communication of infectious diseases and the possibility of a transfusion reaction. From a logistical standpoint, either type of transfusion requires the athlete to surreptitiously transport frozen RBCs, thaw and re-infuse them in a non-clinical setting and then dispose of the medical paraphernalia.
RBC - red blood cells.
I bet the other riders on the team want to smack him about the head now the entire team has withdrawn.
- Kalgrm
- Super Mod
- Posts: 9653
- Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 5:21 pm
- Location: Success, WA
- Contact:
Postby Kalgrm » Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:17 am
According to this page, the absolute maximum would be 120 days, which is the "life span" of the RBCs. However, the stored RBCs would still be "dying" while they were being stored and their storage conditions are not ideal in that environment.Any idea on how long the effects last?
So, you get the maximum effect within 1 to 7 days of ingestion of the cells and it drops from there. I guess now would be the ideal time to be doping in the TdF if you're going to do it.
Cheers,
Graeme
---------------------
Music was better when ugly people were allowed to make it ....
- europa
- Posts: 7334
- Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:51 am
- Location: southern end of Adelaide - home of hills, fixies and drop bears
Postby europa » Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:18 am
tuco wrote:Both types of transfusion can be dangerous because of the risk of infection and the potential toxicity of improperly stored blood.
Hmm, and the commentary team have been talking about one of his wounds being infected. Maybe the source wasn't the wound?
And it doesn't sound like something you can just suddenly decide to do - he didn't just send someone off to the local pusher to grab some dope, the bastard prepared for this. Oh okay, we all know it's more complicated than that, but this is planned and cold blooded.
Richard
- sogood
- Posts: 17168
- Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:31 am
- Location: Sydney AU
Postby sogood » Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:24 am
It's pure and simple, blood doping is aimed to increase the oxygen carrying capacity of the rider's blood, thereby enhancing performance. The more O2 carried per unit of blood, the later the onset of O2 debt and improving endurance. So the technique is to somehow increase this carriage capacity by increasing the amount of haemoglobin (contained within red blood cells) either by re-infusion of one's own blood/red cells or other compatible donor (as alleged in Vino's case). The other common technique is the use of EPO, a hormone that stimulates the production of RBC. The end result being an increase in the haematocrit of the blood (% cell). A more legit technique is to live on high altitudes where the air is thin, thereby stimulating body's natural EPO and push up the haematocrit (possible reason why Rassmussen likes to live in Mexico although one should verify if his home there is at altitude eg. Mexico City). Out of these, the performance enhancing effect from blood infusion is immediate while EPO and high altitude stimulation will take time as they are dependent on body's natural RBC production to kick in.bikeboy asked on another thread that got transplanted to this...
Anyway I just want to ask ( Im quite new to the sport so bear with me on this) what is the advantage of blood doping? So far I understand that its injecting someone elses compatable blood into you. But obviously the blood is enhanced somewhat. So why wouldnt the rider just take the performance enhancing drugs himself. Whats the advantage of injecting someone elses blood?
Out on the horizon, there are now man made blood compatible O2 carrying agents that have been developed for medical applications. These don't involve cells and can be directly infused and float in the recipient's plasma. I haven't read any caught cases yet but these may also be out of dope police's net until they specifically test for them. As many of these new medical products are being developed in the US (largest medical market in the world), it's no surprise there are clouds surrounding some of the US athletes who have associations to the biotech industry.
The down side of blood doping is death. When haematocrit is elevated, the viscosity of the blood is also proportionally increased, resulting in sluggish blood flow and potential clotting. When the haematocrit isn't controlled properly by the doper and gets further increased by dehydration during the competition, the dope recipient may suffer from stroke and heart attacks and die under the physical stresses of racing.
RK wrote:And that is Wikipedia - I can write my own definition.
- Kalgrm
- Super Mod
- Posts: 9653
- Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 5:21 pm
- Location: Success, WA
- Contact:
- sogood
- Posts: 17168
- Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:31 am
- Location: Sydney AU
Postby sogood » Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:37 am
120 days is the natural life cycle of a RBC from the day it gets released from the blood marrow. So within one's circulating blood, there's a mix of RBC at various stages of its life cycle. So when they are reinfused, these will continue its attrition. Further, due to the high haematocrit induced with blood infusion, the body's natural RBC production would be slowed (unless the doper is also on EPO injections). So the beneficial effect from these infusions are relatively short lived.Kalgrm wrote:According to this page, the absolute maximum would be 120 days, which is the "life span" of the RBCs. However, the stored RBCs would still be "dying" while they were being stored and their storage conditions are not ideal in that environment.
So, you get the maximum effect within 1 to 7 days of ingestion of the cells and it drops from there. I guess now would be the ideal time to be doping in the TdF if you're going to do it.
As alleged in Vino's case, the foreign RBC was identified to be from a compatible donor. Through various known and established cell marker identification techniques, the error rate is effectively zero. I think Vino is finished for good. This is also the reason why dopers likes to use one's own blood, collected at a much earlier time point. With your own cells, apart from the haematocrit anomaly, it's essentially unprovable that you've doped. Hence the stipulation for an upper limit on athletes' haematocrit on testing. Vino was really dumb!
RK wrote:And that is Wikipedia - I can write my own definition.
- toolonglegs
- Posts: 15463
- Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
- Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!
Postby toolonglegs » Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:43 am
- toolonglegs
- Posts: 15463
- Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
- Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!
Postby toolonglegs » Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:49 am
- Bnej
- Posts: 2880
- Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:43 pm
- Location: Katoomba, NSW
Postby Bnej » Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:50 am
Don't think I'll ever get why you'd want to win that way, but then I haven't ever wanted to win something more than I wanted to participate.
- Womble
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:09 am
- Location: Brisbane
- toolonglegs
- Posts: 15463
- Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
- Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!
Postby toolonglegs » Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:13 am
- europa
- Posts: 7334
- Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:51 am
- Location: southern end of Adelaide - home of hills, fixies and drop bears
Postby europa » Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:18 am
Richard
- sogood
- Posts: 17168
- Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:31 am
- Location: Sydney AU
Postby sogood » Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:23 am
Fat chance that he could have done it on his own. Given his use of a donor, he is not too bright up there. As a minimum, he needed a donor accomplice.Womble wrote:Is it possible for Vino to have done this on his own or would he require help form a doctor or his team? I would have thought the amountof tie a rider is not with somebody from their team during thr tour is minimal.
In any case, you need at least someone who is familiar with the use of needles, blood bags, storage techniques, infusion lines, risk managements etc to supervise the whole procedure.
I often wondered, why don't the doping police just check for needle marks on these people? For blood transfusions, you really need a big 14G needle. It's hard to hide these needle marks.
RK wrote:And that is Wikipedia - I can write my own definition.
-
- Posts: 448
- Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2007 7:49 pm
- Location: Brisbane
Postby Halfanewb » Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:44 am
I feel for Cadel who has put in a stellar effort on the tour so far. I am assuming he will get the credit for the stage but its not the same as winning on the day and getting to stand on the podium in front of the tv viewers across the world.
-
- Posts: 2613
- Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 8:06 pm
- Location: Rivervale WA
Postby moosterbounce » Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:06 pm
It does remove a few threats to Cadel though doesn't it? Kloden was gaining and is a good ITT. But no-one wants to win when you don't have any opponents left (unless it is a demo derby!! Moo shows her country roots)
Return to “International and National Tours and Events”
- General Australian Cycling Topics
- Info / announcements
- Buying a bike / parts
- General Cycling Discussion
- The Bike Shed
- Cycling Health
- Cycling Safety and Advocacy
- Women's Cycling
- Bike & Gear Reviews
- Cycling Trade
- Stolen Bikes
- Bicycle FAQs
- The Market Place
- Member to Member Bike and Gear Sales
- Want to Buy, Group Buy, Swap
- My Bikes or Gear Elsewhere
- Serious Biking
- Audax / Randonneuring
- Retro biking
- Commuting
- MTB
- Recumbents
- Fixed Gear/ Single Speed
- Track
- Electric Bicycles
- Cyclocross and Gravel Grinding
- Dragsters / Lowriders / Cruisers
- Children's Bikes
- Cargo Bikes and Utility Cycling
- Road Racing
- Road Biking
- Training
- Time Trial
- Triathlon
- International and National Tours and Events
- Cycle Touring
- Touring Australia
- Touring Overseas
- Touring Bikes and Equipment
- Australia
- Western Australia
- New South Wales
- Queensland
- South Australia
- Victoria
- ACT
- Tasmania
- Northern Territory
- Country & Regional
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users
- All times are UTC+10:00
- Top
- Delete cookies
About the Australian Cycling Forums
The Australian Cycling Forums is a welcoming community where you can ask questions and talk about the type of bikes and cycling topics you like.
Bicycles Network Australia
Forum Information
Connect with BNA
This website uses affiliate links to retail platforms including ebay, amazon, proviz and ribble.