Leader Rasmussen kicked off tour

Tour de France, Giro d'Italia, Vuelta a España, Tour Down Under and more

Postby Halfanewb » Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:00 pm

I know its disappointing to hear about the doping but i am of the opinion that a rider should be clean while competing and what he does between tours and events is his own business.

It may have been that ras had taken a recreational drug while on his break and his failure to attend tests is due to that.
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by BNA » Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:02 pm

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Postby sogood » Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:02 pm

Imanewbie wrote:I know its disappointing to hear about the doping but i am of the opinion that a rider should be clean while competing and what he does between tours and events is his own business.

WRONG!

The effect of drugs when smartly administered can last for weeks if not months. Hence the absolute necessity to test out of competition.
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Postby Bnej » Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:04 pm

If you decide to participate in any sporting event or series, you have to agree to all the rules. Those rules can include behaviour outside the event itself.

If they don't want to comply with the rules then they don't have to participate in the Tour.
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Postby zasa » Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:11 pm

Exactly.

S/&%& it's not like these guys get paid badly. If they can't complete cleanly then look for another career.

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Postby sogood » Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:22 pm

zasa wrote:S&%$ it's not like these guys get paid badly. If they can't complete cleanly then look for another career.

LBS maybe? :roll:
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Postby Halfanewb » Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:29 pm

sogood wrote:
Imanewbie wrote:I know its disappointing to hear about the doping but i am of the opinion that a rider should be clean while competing and what he does between tours and events is his own business.

WRONG!

The effect of drugs when smartly administered can last for weeks if not months. Hence the absolute necessity to test out of competition.


Sogood, i know you like to bang the drum about stuff, but shouting down another persons opinion is a dicey business and i've seen you take people to task here a few times on the forums,, why not try it down the pub one night and see what it gets you eh?
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Postby sogood » Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:46 pm

Imanewbie wrote:Sogood, i know you like to bang the drum about stuff, but shouting down another persons opinion is a dicey business and i've seen you take people to task here a few times on the forums,, why not try it down the pub one night and see what it gets you eh?

My apology if my reply offended you. But unfortunately this doping issue is getting somewhat emotional for many and has affected the psyche of many spectators, even here. But I'll take a deep breath and use lower case from now on...

But let's get back to the facts of the issue. Not taking any random out of competition drug tests is a poor strategy that's doomed for failure as it failed to recognize the basic physiological effects of the numerous doping substances out there. This really is a very basic medical science fact that one needs to understand before popping up proposals.

PS. This is a clear headed net forum and not a smoke and EtOH intoxication filled pub (mass social doping), where factual issues are as important as personal opinions.
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Postby Bluerider » Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:35 pm

Even though I just got a roadie I had watched the Tour being a sports follower as I am.....
Like all sports the almighty pressure$$$ has clouded sportsmanship but the athlete has a choice !
It's a shame but it only makes me wonder what Real heroes those riders must have been long long ago.
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Postby europa » Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:48 pm

In reality Bluerider, the riders today are still heros. Sure, some of them are running engines bored out further than allowed, but they still have to ride the bike. Feel free to admire Rasmussen's and Vinokourov's courage and tactical ability - it's sad we can't admire their morals as well.

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Postby MichaelB » Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:02 pm

sogood wrote:
Imanewbie wrote:Sogood, i know you like to bang the drum about stuff, but shouting down another persons opinion is a dicey business and i've seen you take people to task here a few times on the forums,, why not try it down the pub one night and see what it gets you eh?

My apology if my reply offended you. But unfortunately this doping issue is getting somewhat emotional for many and has affected the psyche of many spectators, even here. But I'll take a deep breath and use lower case from now on...

But let's get back to the facts of the issue. Not taking any random out of competition drug tests is a poor strategy that's doomed for failure as it failed to recognize the basic physiological effects of the numerous doping substances out there. This really is a very basic medical science fact that one needs to understand before popping up proposals.

PS. This is a clear headed net forum and not a smoke and EtOH intoxication filled pub (mass social doping), where factual issues are as important as personal opinions.


Lets not also forget that majority of "recreational drugs" are also illegal.

I agree with sogood here 100%.

Mind you, at least ccyling are doing something about it - look at what is happening in AFL :roll:
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Postby sogood » Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:54 pm

europa wrote:In reality Bluerider, the riders today are still heros. Sure, some of them are running engines bored out further than allowed, but they still have to ride the bike. Feel free to admire Rasmussen's and Vinokourov's courage and tactical ability - it's sad we can't admire their morals as well.

I think that is correct. Today's riders ride faster and places equal if not more stress on their body. At the end of the day, elite athletes are performing the peak of their generation. Whatever way you look at it, it's an achievement... If doping isn't involved.

IIRC, there has been plenty of cycling cheats in the history of TdF, whether taking a car ride or a short cut, or putting lead weights in their water bottles.

Seems to me that cyclists has improved physically and equipments have improved out of bound, but the basic human morality is still stuck at the cave man stage. :?
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Postby Hotdog » Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:14 pm

Sogood is right that cyclists have been doing everything they can to get an edge since the very first days of the TdF, and that includes performance enhancing substances. The first concerted efforts to stamp out doping in cycling began in the 60's, and the fact that they still haven't succeeded 40 years later tells you how deeply ingrained the practice had already become back then. I doubt the cycling heroes of yesteryear were any more squeaky clean than this year's bunch, I'm afraid, probably less so.
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Postby moosterbounce » Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:23 pm

Bluerider wrote:I will watch purely to oogle at the 2wheeled carbon rockets :lol:


Oh crap - I'm gonna lose my place as the resident carbon junkie (can I say that in a doping thread? :wink: ).

Looks like I'll need to go shopping for a new carbon toy!!

Speaking of carbon, I was reading last night about the Mavic Neutral Helper Vehicles on the tour. I think we can guess what wheels they carry...but what bikes do they carry? Hee hee :lol: Scott CR1 frames and forks apparently :D Not sure why those Discovery guys don't fake a broken bike just so they can get a better one :roll: :D

So...back to drugs in sport...can anyone name a sport where it isn't rife? Perhaps synchronised swimming? Oh sorry...I asked for a sport didn't I :wink: :D
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Postby Hotdog » Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:25 pm

moosterbounce wrote:So...back to drugs in sport...can anyone name a sport where it isn't rife? Perhaps synchronised swimming? Oh sorry...I asked for a sport didn't I :wink: :D

Tiddlywinks :D
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Postby europa » Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:32 pm

Even darts has its drugs. Ever notice how the top darts players always have a pint in their hand? They drink to relax the muscles, then keep themselves topped up to that level. Bizarre.

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Postby Halfanewb » Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:49 pm

sogood wrote:
PS. This is a clear headed net forum and not a smoke and EtOH intoxication filled pub (mass social doping), where factual issues are as important as personal opinions.


facts are always more important than opinions, mostly because opinions are an expression of how someone feels about a subject :).

If i had tried to support my opinion with facts then your initial reply would not have been misplaced. But as i framed my post firstly with the proviso that they are clean when they ride and then within that frame the context of recreational drug use (which you so artfully snipped out to suit your reply) your reply was misguided on many levels.

The tests these guys undergo are very sensitive, even picking up on steroid skin lotions that might have been used in the recent past.

So although i do not personally agree with any recreational drug use , including alcohol, i do believe that everyone has a right to a private life to do with as they wish outside work hours.

Scenario - as a part of your workplace agreement your boss asks you to sign a clause that you will never be intoxicated at work.
- your boss starts testing you for alcohol consumption at work.
- your boss starts turning up at your place to test you weeknights
- your boss starts testing you during your holidays
- your boss requires you to write down a schedule of all your movements in case he wants to test you.
- one night your not home , when asked you say you went out for italian food and but the list says mexican food so your dragged out in front of your colleagues, humiliated and then sacked and the story appears in the local rag.

At what stage of this process do you tell him to F off?

- back to reality -

Rasmussen was fined by his employer for and i quote -

The Danish Cycling Union (DCU) claimed Rasmussen had been warned three times about failing to inform drug testers of his whereabouts.

Under International Cycling Union (UCI) rules, athletes must inform the sport's governing body of their schedule in order for random drug tests to be carried out. - fair enough.

The UCI's approach is understandable, they see the need to clean up a sport and thats fair enough, but in my view this latest decision is as harsh as sending a convict to australia for stealing a slice of bread. A lot of innocent people have been affected with this ham fisted "holier than though" approach.

After already being punished once for this infraction of the rules, i think the "Farce" lies with the UCI who have convicted and punished him a second time just because he was in the publics eye.

Now the UCI can pound their chests and strut about because everyone can see they are "taking action!" " seig heil!"
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Postby mikesbytes » Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:51 pm

moosterbounce wrote:Oh crap - I'm gonna lose my place as the resident carbon junkie (can I say that in a doping thread? :wink: ).


Your still the carbon queen
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Postby europa » Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:14 pm

Imanewbie wrote:After already being punished once for this infraction of the rules, i think the "Farce" lies with the UCI who have convicted and punished him a second time just because he was in the publics eye.


Actually, the UCI have nothing to do (officially) with Rasmussen leaving the tour, nor do the tour organisers. Rabobank sacked him and pulled him from the tour for breaking internal team rules, in that he lied to them, told them he was in Mexico when in fact, he was in Italy.

And yeah, there are all the conspiracy theories about behind the scenes pressure on Rabobank, some of which are quite seductive.

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Postby europa » Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:17 pm

Mind the emotions boys. This is an emotive subject and things don't always appear on the internet as intended. Address the post, not the poster.

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Postby sogood » Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:02 pm

moosterbounce wrote:Speaking of carbon, I was reading last night about the Mavic Neutral Helper Vehicles on the tour. I think we can guess what wheels they carry...but what bikes do they carry? Hee hee :lol: Scott CR1 frames and forks apparently :D Not sure why those Discovery guys don't fake a broken bike just so they can get a better one :roll: :D

Like all sponsorship deals, maybe Scott entered the lowest bid, or the lowest common denominator? :wink:
Last edited by sogood on Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby sogood » Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:09 pm

Imanewbie wrote:The tests these guys undergo are very sensitive, even picking up on steroid skin lotions that might have been used in the recent past.

With all due respect, I think drug screening and anti-doping measures is way out of your expertise. It ain't that simple and the whole systems involves more than just a few tests. If you have some insight on the latest biotech and pharmaceutical research, you'd know how important randomness, surprise and timing is in nailing those drug cheats.
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Postby AUbicycles » Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:28 am

This is a good year for a scandel... Doping has always been an issue and possible always will be. For a long time I have questioned the performance of the cyclists and the ability to have an uphold so much energy over the entire tour, not impossible but amazing.

With all of the guilt admissions and new allegation of top riders and teams, not just for this season but over the last few decades something has to give. I guess timing can never be perfect by this cleanout is quite refreshing and I hope that a lot of the riders who are covering up can take time to have a long think about it.

The reality is that riders have a goal and will try every legal opportunity to enhance their performance and as we have discovered illegal methods. New performance enhancing methods that are not yet banned are tempting so it takes a moral responsibility from riders and teams to do the right thing.


Imanewbie wrote:I know its disappointing to hear about the doping but i am of the opinion that a rider should be clean while competing and what he does between tours and events is his own business.


I don't agree, compare it to a body builder.
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Postby mikesbytes » Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:26 am

AUbicycles wrote:
Imanewbie wrote:I know its disappointing to hear about the doping but i am of the opinion that a rider should be clean while competing and what he does between tours and events is his own business.


I don't agree, compare it to a body builder.


I don't agree either and the body builder is an excellent example, once they reach their 40's many have significant health issues caused by what they took when they were younger.
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Postby sogood » Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:12 am

Let alone weight lifters. Just look at those American sprinters and power athletes. Quite a number of them, including Olympic gold medalists, died of mysterious sudden deaths. Some of them may be random bad genes, but the numbers and circumstances suggests there's more to it.
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Postby Halfanewb » Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:37 am

oh we are talking about weight lifters? dang, and i thought the thread was about rasmussen :)

PS. Boonen touches on the same issue as i'm talking about.

Boonen -"I only know that the UCI has to do its best. Because it goes very far. I have no privacy any more: I have to tell them every day where I am. Go with that to a court and you will always win."
Last edited by Halfanewb on Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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