Flandis finally comes Clean about doping. Names LA & co

Tour de France, Giro d'Italia, Vuelta a España, Tour Down Under and more

Re: Flandis finally comes Clean about doping. Names LA & co

Postby Chuck » Sat May 22, 2010 6:57 am

Grant W wrote:The sad part is the fact that his team and his sponsers all contribute to "Livestrong"
the organisation contributes a hell of alot to Cancer research and without sponsers, a team and a tarnished reputation, millions of dollars a year would be lost to this.


Great cause, the more resources poured into cancer treatment and research the better. It does create a dilemma, what serves the greater good :?

Grant W wrote:Hope all is well Chuck, It has been a while
Grant


All is well thanks mate, hopefully I can make it out to the elimination crit tomorrow and say hello.

sogood wrote:But no one here can categorically say one way or another.


Agree, just trying to add to an open forum with a different point of view. I know you're all for that :wink:

flammer wrote:Everywhere I look I see a conspiracy theory. Easy to dream up because they require no actual evidence and justify personal mediocrity. :lol:


Lance loves a good conspiracy theory too: 99 retesting results, epo found, the frogs are out to get me :P
Image
FPR Ragamuffin
User avatar
Chuck
 
Posts: 4218
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 9:19 pm
Location: Hiding in the bunch

by BNA » Sat May 22, 2010 7:17 am

BNA
 

Re: Flandis finally comes Clean about doping. Names LA & co

Postby AUbicycles » Sat May 22, 2010 7:17 am

Chuck wrote:Lance loves a good conspiracy theory too: 99 retesting results, epo found, the frogs are out to get me :P


And it won't let off for years to come…
User avatar
AUbicycles
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 9132
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:14 am
Location: Sydney

Re: Flandis finally comes Clean about doping. Names LA & co

Postby damonik » Sat May 22, 2010 9:57 am

Specialized S-Works Roubaix (With electronic Ultegra, oooo the boogey man)
damonik
 
Posts: 365
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:11 pm
Location: Perth

Re: Flandis finally comes Clean about doping. Names LA & co

Postby jules21 » Sat May 22, 2010 11:52 am

sogood wrote:Until the rider has been proven to be a doper, these internet "proofs" are just trial by the mob, insufficient to ruin someone's reputation. If Lance did dope and was so smart as to be able to evade all investigations, then that's his luck. Too bad that FloydL is a dumbass. :mrgreen:

i suspect that's precisely what has happened. there is a lot of circumstantial evidence against Lance, as well as some more substantive (the "de"-identified EPO positives from the TdF, for example - there's an article floating around quoting an Aussie drug testing expert who judges Lance as guilty).

it's inevitable that someone as high profile as Lance will attract accusations and I take Floyd Landis' with a grain of salt, but having read through some of the evidence against him, it seems fairly strong. the fact he never officially tested positive means nothing - neither did Ben Cousins.
Image
User avatar
jules21
 
Posts: 8704
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:14 pm
Location: deep in the pain cave

Re: Flandis finally comes Clean about doping. Names LA & co

Postby Parrott » Sat May 22, 2010 11:58 am

jules21 wrote: the fact he never officially tested positive means nothing - neither did Ben Cousins.


What professional athlete has been tested more than Lance? I would disagree and say it does mean something. No validated positive result over all those tests for all those years. If that doesn't mean anything then what does? :?
User avatar
Parrott
 
Posts: 2960
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:45 pm

Re: Flandis finally comes Clean about doping. Names LA & co

Postby Dunk » Sat May 22, 2010 12:29 pm

It's Armstrongs assertion he is the most tested athlete in history.

I've heard suggestions that Marion Jones (who never tested positive in an A and B sample) has/had been tested more than Armstrong but I haven't seen any stats either way. :|
Dunk
 
Posts: 69
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:13 am

Re: Flandis finally comes Clean about doping. Names LA & co

Postby jules21 » Sat May 22, 2010 12:49 pm

Parrott wrote:What professional athlete has been tested more than Lance? I would disagree and say it does mean something. No validated positive result over all those tests for all those years. If that doesn't mean anything then what does? :?

it's no secret that the tests can be beaten if you have the knowledge and discipline to maintain the necessary procedures. many athletes have been caught out by simply messing up their masking procedures. Lance worked with Dr Ferrari, whose reputed speciality is doping and beating doping controls. it's reasonable to believe Lance would have easier access to the best masking products and procedures - i.e. full time expert assistance, that other lower paid riders couldn't afford.

that's hardly proof, but you'd be naive to accept that returning negative test results was proof of anything.
Image
User avatar
jules21
 
Posts: 8704
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:14 pm
Location: deep in the pain cave

Re: Flandis finally comes Clean about doping. Names LA & co

Postby Parrott » Sat May 22, 2010 3:40 pm

jules21 wrote:it's no secret that the tests can be beaten if you have the knowledge and discipline to maintain the necessary procedures. many athletes have been caught out by simply messing up their masking procedures. Lance worked with Dr Ferrari, whose reputed speciality is doping and beating doping controls. it's reasonable to believe Lance would have easier access to the best masking products and procedures - i.e. full time expert assistance, that other lower paid riders couldn't afford.

that's hardly proof, but you'd be naive to accept that returning negative test results was proof of anything.


Sure, however Dr Ferrari has worked with other riders who were caught, why wasn't Lance? Presumably the other riders had the same expertise available to them. You can't convict anyone purely based on association and heresay. I believe in the principle of innocence until proven guilt. That simply hasn't happened. The possibility/probability is there that in an era of PEDs he did dope. The proof isn't there though, plenty proof of absence of guilt is, I prefer the title of optimist to naivety though :)
User avatar
Parrott
 
Posts: 2960
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:45 pm

Re: Flandis finally comes Clean about doping. Names LA & co

Postby toolonglegs » Sat May 22, 2010 3:46 pm

None of the riders caught out in operation Porto ever tested positive either...
Last edited by toolonglegs on Wed Jun 16, 2010 6:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
Image
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14382
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

Re: Flandis finally comes Clean about doping. Names LA & co

Postby jules21 » Sat May 22, 2010 4:16 pm

toolonglegs wrote:Ferrari was / is a pioneer in this field remember...you worked with him as your coach / doctor for one reason only.

i think that's the most damning thing. if you're caught outside someone's home with housebreaking tools and a balaclava over your head, you can deny breaking into it, maybe there's no smoking gun, but your credibility is shot.
Image
User avatar
jules21
 
Posts: 8704
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:14 pm
Location: deep in the pain cave

Re: Flandis finally comes Clean about doping. Names LA & co

Postby toolonglegs » Sat May 22, 2010 4:56 pm

"If it doesn't show up in the drug controls, then it's not doping"

"EPO is not dangerous, it's the abuse that is. It's also dangerous to drink 10 liters of orange juice."
Last edited by toolonglegs on Wed Jun 16, 2010 6:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
Image
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14382
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

Re: Flandis finally comes Clean about doping. Names LA & co

Postby jules21 » Sat May 22, 2010 6:09 pm

Image
Image
:D
Image
User avatar
jules21
 
Posts: 8704
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:14 pm
Location: deep in the pain cave

Re: Flandis finally comes Clean about doping. Names LA & co

Postby Redbull » Sat May 22, 2010 7:37 pm

J'accuse......

Its all a bit Massachusetts 1692 :?
The trouble with jogging is that the ice falls out of your glass
User avatar
Redbull
 
Posts: 1916
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:19 pm
Location: Rockingham

Re: Flandis finally comes Clean about doping. Names LA & co

Postby Parrott » Sat May 22, 2010 7:59 pm

So you are saying anyone who has worked with Ferrari has done so to cheat. From here;
All of the Team Gewiss that took the entire podium in the 1994 edition of La Flèche Wallonne with Moreno Argentin, Giorgio Furlan and Eugeni Berzin
Lance Armstrong: tested positive for corticoid steroids in the 1999 Tour De France, later explained by a backdated Therapeutic Use Exemption[4]. In 2005 it became apparent that during the development of the EPO test c.2000-2001 urine samples from the 1999 Tour had been used to refine the test. There were 12 positive samples, 6 of which were subsequently shown to be Armstrong's through the work of one of L'Equipe's investigative journalists.[5]
Paolo Savoldelli
Mario Cipollini
Gianni Bugno
Giorgio Furlan
Pavel Tonkov
Tony Rominger: former cyclist, manager of Contador, Vinokourov, Evans and Kessler, amongst others
Abraham Olano
Ivan Gotti
Claudio Chiappucci
Filippo Simeoni: admitted the use of doping
Patrik Sinkewitz: had a positive out-of-competition test while preparing for the 2007 Tour de France
Eddy Mazzoleni
Levi Leipheimer
Floyd Landis: tested positive on testosterone during the 2006 Tour de France
George Hincapie
Axel Merckx
Alexandre Vinokourov: positive doping test at the 2007 Tour de France
Michael Rogers

My understanding is that he used altitude training, nutrition and training regimes as a method to improve aerobic output also, in any case Lance won the 05 tour without him by 4'41", not even close.

As far as urine testing being a reliable determinant of epo use, particularly in stored samples scroll through thisif you want. In any case there is still no evidence and he is not proven guilty. Nothing has changed with the Landis allegations. And he still has 7 consecutive wins :P
User avatar
Parrott
 
Posts: 2960
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:45 pm

Re: Flandis finally comes Clean about doping. Names LA & co

Postby Aushiker » Sat May 22, 2010 8:10 pm

Hi

Oh no an Australian cheating cyclist ... what next :wink:

Andrew
"Pedal-pounding pounce" - D. Fluellen - West Australian 13/1/14
Image
User avatar
Aushiker
 
Posts: 20152
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2007 1:55 pm
Location: Fremantle, WA

Re: Flandis finally comes Clean about doping. Names LA & co

Postby jules21 » Sat May 22, 2010 8:12 pm

Parrott wrote: So you are saying anyone who has worked with Ferrari has done so to cheat.

the list you provided doesn't exactly prove otherwise! at least chiapucci has also admitted to EPO use.
Parrott wrote: And he still has 7 consecutive wins :P

i wouldn't be surprised if there comes a time when you can't say that.
Image
User avatar
jules21
 
Posts: 8704
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:14 pm
Location: deep in the pain cave

Re: Flandis finally comes Clean about doping. Names LA & co

Postby hannos » Sat May 22, 2010 9:23 pm

I'm pretty sure LA has used EPO. If my memory serves me correct (from his book) it was administered to him by his cancer doctors...
2010 BMC SLC01
Image
User avatar
hannos
 
Posts: 4024
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:18 am
Location: Sydney

Re: Flandis finally comes Clean about doping. Names LA & co

Postby Chuck » Sat May 22, 2010 9:51 pm

LA & co might also be a little nervous about Tyler Hamiltons state of mind. He too may decide that a little soul cleansing is in order.

I doubt that Floyd or Tyler have anything solid, but if you fling enough mud....
Image
FPR Ragamuffin
User avatar
Chuck
 
Posts: 4218
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 9:19 pm
Location: Hiding in the bunch

Re: Flandis finally comes Clean about doping. Names LA & co

Postby sogood » Sat May 22, 2010 10:00 pm

hannos wrote:I'm pretty sure LA has used EPO. If my memory serves me correct (from his book) it was administered to him by his cancer doctors...

Why not just bold up the first sentence and omit the second. ;)
Bianchi, Ridley, Montague, GT, Garmin and All things Apple :)
RK wrote:And that is Wikipedia - I can write my own definition.
User avatar
sogood
 
Posts: 16929
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:31 am
Location: Sydney AU

Re: Flandis finally comes Clean about doping. Names LA & co

Postby heay » Sat May 22, 2010 10:41 pm

Parrott wrote: L'Equipe's investigative journalists.[5]


They are not even worthy to be called journalist. The French have been bitter at not have a French winner of the tour for a long time. So when a rider comes out and wins as often as LA has they will do anything to drive up a story. How is it that so called journalist can get all the information about test when they are done in confidence? I have myself been drug tested and have signed the forms and know the procedure from the time you are given notice to the time it is completed.

FL should have come out with all the evidence instead of bringing up a story that is flawed (UCI have already confirmed that it is flawed).
heay
 
Posts: 294
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 5:44 pm

Re: Flandis finally comes Clean about doping. Names LA & co

Postby SeditionTrial » Sat May 22, 2010 10:55 pm

Another piece of less-than-perfect evidence, but it doesn't look good for "our hero". Landis might have something to gain from making this up, or exaggerating his claims, but what about the masseuse (?spelling), and those other former team-mates.

Plenty of people here are willing to use the innocent until proven guilty (or beyond reasonable doubt) measure in judging this guy, but I prefer the balance of probabilities test in making my mind up. And on that basis, I think he has been doping long and hard. Hopefully the testing science will catch up with the masking agents, blood thickeners (eww) and growth promoters soon.

And I don't think we should make him welcome in Adelaide, or pay him a massive appearance fee to appear in our country again either.
New tar seal in front of my wheel
User avatar
SeditionTrial
 
Posts: 195
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:52 pm
Location: Brisbane

Re: Flandis finally comes Clean about doping. Names LA & co

Postby toolonglegs » Sat May 22, 2010 11:03 pm

Last edited by toolonglegs on Wed Jun 16, 2010 6:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
Image
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14382
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

Re: Flandis finally comes Clean about doping. Names LA & co

Postby Grant W » Sun May 23, 2010 10:53 am

Strap both Landis and Armstrong to a polygraph machine let the truth come out.
Perfect way for LA to put the "rumours" ;-) to bed.
Grant W
 
Posts: 146
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 10:07 pm

Re: Flandis finally comes Clean about doping. Names LA & co

Postby toolonglegs » Sun May 23, 2010 4:07 pm

It's a long read...but an interesting one.
http://nyvelocity.com/content/features/2010/dirty-deal
Image
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14382
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

Re: Flandis finally comes Clean about doping. Names LA & co

Postby Grant W » Sun May 23, 2010 4:52 pm

WOW! oh yeah, "Bring it on"
Now we wait to see how many banned riders come forward after all of this.
Grant W
 
Posts: 146
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 10:07 pm

PreviousNext

Return to International and National Tours and Events

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users



Popular Bike Shops
Torpedo 7 Torpedo7 AU
Ground Effect Ground Effect NZ
Chain Reaction Cycles CRC UK
Wiggle Wiggle UK
Ebay Ebay AU

“Bicycles BNA Twitter
“Bicycles BNA Facebook
“Google+ BNA Google+
“Bicycles BNA Newsletter

> FREE BNA Stickers
> BNA Cycling Kit