Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby sogood » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:26 pm

Contador just got sooooo... lucky. No one else got a positive, but just him, him alone in the peloton. And just so happens that his body weight can matter significantly in the battle for the yellow jersey and the multi-million $$$ prize money and commercial benefits. I believe Contador so much [not]!
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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby brentono » Mon Feb 21, 2011 3:18 pm

jules21 wrote:you seem to be suggesting that the threshold for testing clen in beef is too high and that much would be undetected.


I am suggesting, that testing levels for WADA and Asoprovac are two entirely different situations.

Here's a nice rundown on WADA Labs.
Part of the problem is that clenbuterol detection has become so good. To be accredited by the World Anti-Doping Agency, labs must be able to detect very small concentrations. Some, however, can spot concentrations far lower than WADA’s required minimum, traces tiny enough to possibly have come from food, not doping.

Contador’s urine was analysed in one such lab, in Cologne, Germany. In a 2009 scientific paper, Cologne scientists said that, with superfine detection, clenbuterol positives “could be due to the consumption of trace amounts present in feed or principally also in the water supply.”

“No doubt about it,” Detlef Thieme, who heads Germany’s other WADA-accredited lab, in Kreischa, says of the possibility of false positives from food. “That’s undisputed.”

It’s “a very pressing problem and the faster it’s solved, the better.”

One answer could be setting a threshold. Only clenbuterol concentrations above that limit would trigger sanctions. For now, WADA has a zero-tolerance policy on clenbuterol.


From your quoted Asoprovac piece, which most here, and most commentators passed over...

1. The association, which accounts for 85 percent of the country's meat production industry
There is another 15% produced outside Asoprovac- is it controlled?

2.the authorities carried out 14,179 controls, and there was not one positive case for Clenbuterol.
With the limits set as they are by the EU, and the Laboratories doing this testing only able to analyse to a
threshold level, 4000x higher than Contador's results, much could be missed, Yes.


3.Asoprovac stated "To comply with the current legislation, every animal destined for human consumption
has to be submitted to veterinary inspection ante and post mortem."
Does that mean that only 7000 or 14,000 odd animals, passed through their system, doesn't add up.

Some other facts, which make the Asoprovac piece, sound unconvincing.
Besides all of the consumed beef, coming from South America, and we don't know the state of it's control.

The change in emphasis in the Spanish beef production system is illustrated in the number of Irish calf exports making their way to Spain. In 2009, 24,500 Irish calves were exported to Spain. For the first seven weeks of 2010, live exports have increased by 35% on 2009 levels to 1,900 head. In 2008, 54% of total Spanish imports consisted of calves less than 80kg in weight.


This would make around 33,000 head being imported in 2010- Where are the control figures for these,
are they included in the 14,179 controls?


Spanish beef production has fallen by an estimated 22% since 2005 to 562,000 tonnes.

As already stated, Asoprovac... you have to start wondering, about the whole operation?
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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby jules21 » Mon Feb 21, 2011 3:35 pm

brentono wrote: 1. The association, which accounts for 85 percent of the country's meat production industry
There is another 15% produced outside Asoprovac- is it controlled?

you're confusing Asoprovac, an industry association whose members account for "85 percent of the country's meat production industry", with the spanish regulatory agency who would be doing the testing. they would test samples from all sources of meat supplied to the spanish market, including imports. you can take that as fact, there is no way they would just test locally produced beef.

brentono wrote: As already stated, Asoprovac... you have to start wondering, about the whole operation? :mrgreen:

it's good that you're asking questions. but don't confuse your lack of certainty with lack of integrity in the spanish regulatory testing regime.
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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby brentono » Mon Feb 21, 2011 3:53 pm

jules21 wrote:lack of integrity in the spanish regulatory testing regime.


Which was overseen by the EU authority, and has been found wanting, as cited (e.g. 2004)
... can link you up with the EU docs, if you wish to wade thru them.

As for Asoprovac, they were the ones who threw out the "14,179 controls" figure,
with no effort to provide linking, so anybody could check the legitamacy, of their quote.
(and NO positives, almost reeks of the "unbelievable"... and I could only see it, due to the threshold limits)

You have the link, to these quoted results? I would be able to read and understand them,
but my punt is they would not stand up to scrutiny. :roll:
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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby jules21 » Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:06 pm

brentono wrote:(and NO positives, almost reeks of the "unbelievable"... and I could only see it, due to the threshold limits)

with respect, you seem to be basing your argument on the belief that no positive test results on cattle is "unbelievable". a more credible argument would start by considering all the posibilities and working through the evidence to eliminate them until the most likely explanation was left - you're going the other way by starting with your final position and just collecting any evidence you can find to support it.
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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby brentono » Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:39 pm

So what your saying, Asoprovac stated there was no positives, so that is fact.

My research, the laboratories who do clenbuterol analysis on beef in Spain (are not WADA)
For beef to be shown as positive... there are two thresholds-
1. for muscle, would have to be 2000x the level registered in Contador.
2. for liver and kidneys, would have to be 10,000x the level registered in Contador.

If we were able to see the results of the 14,179 controls, possibly some would show clenbuterol,
just not up to the threshold limits, or over, to be positive.

A media statement that there was no positive, does not make it fact (no clenbuterol in the process)

Now the WADA system is a whole different situation,
Some, however, can spot concentrations far lower than WADA’s required minimum


There are only a very few labs, even in the WADA system, that can measure to the limits of Contador's result.

Contador’s urine was analysed in one such lab, in Cologne, Germany. In a 2009 scientific paper, Cologne scientists said that, with superfine detection, clenbuterol positives “could be due to the consumption of trace amounts present in feed or principally also in the water supply.”


Note: ... trace amounts present in feed or principally also in the water supply

Jules21, you make the point, and maybe so...
a more credible argument would start by considering all the posibilities and working through the evidence to eliminate them


That might be possible if ALL the evidence was made available (which it has not been).... no just media "hearsay"
... so far.
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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby Mulger bill » Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:02 pm

Interesting...

Presence of the stuff in cattle below concentration x is all fine, dandy and "negative" so all these clen doped animals can be sold as fit for consumption and presumably marketed as "clen free"?

Much as I hate to admit this, and unlikely as it may be.... there's an element of doubt just snuck into my scone... :?
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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby twizzle » Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:47 am

Mulger bill wrote:Interesting...

Presence of the stuff in cattle below concentration x is all fine, dandy and "negative" so all these clen doped animals can be sold as fit for consumption and presumably marketed as "clen free"?

Much as I hate to admit this, and unlikely as it may be.... there's an element of doubt just snuck into my scone... :?


But as the expert in the clen field said months ago, you have to have significant levels of clen in the animal for it to show up in the urine of someone who ate the animal. At the end of the day, it's a banned substance - if you buy/eat crap from unknown sources you know you are taking a risk. How the heck does the UCI get away with banning Li Fuyu who at least can show likely exposure to clen yet allow Clentador off just because he had a receipt for a piece of steak???

And did anyone else see the story about Alberto changing his hair colour, which meant he couldn't use the hair follicle analysis to help prove his innocence... perhaps because it would have provided more evidence of his guilt?
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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby jules21 » Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:22 am

Mulger bill wrote: Presence of the stuff in cattle below concentration x is all fine, dandy and "negative" so all these clen doped animals can be sold as fit for consumption and presumably marketed as "clen free"?

shaun, that's a red herring. the threshold rates for cattle testing are still very low. no one gives humans or cattle clen at the tiny concentrations contador was tested at. the most likely reason contador had such a low concentration was that the clen was administered long before he transfused the blood for storage and it had broken down to an almost negligible level.

what Brentono is arguing is that the cattle testing is too insensitive to pick anything up. in fact, it's the other way around - the test used on contador was super-sensitive. additionally, the threshold levels for cyclists were also higher than those contador was tested at - it doesn't mean that in practice they can't test at lower levels, as contador discovered..

Mulger bill wrote:Much as I hate to admit this, and unlikely as it may be.... there's an element of doubt just snuck into my scone... :?

most people agree it's possible he ingested tainted meat. it's just unlikely. doubt won't get him off though - he needs proof.
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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby brentono » Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:15 am

twizzle wrote: How the heck does the UCI get away with banning Li Fuyu who at least can show likely exposure to clen yet allow Clentador off just because he had a receipt for a piece of steak???

And did anyone else see the story about Alberto changing his hair colour, which meant he couldn't use the hair follicle analysis to help prove his innocence... perhaps because it would have provided more evidence of his guilt?


It just shows, that most here, shoot from the hip... :)
If you had been following the Li Fuyu case, it is still pending the Contador case.
Now that Contador had been found not guilty by his federation and the UCI, I believe the Chinese Federation
will follow suit, and let Li Fuyu off. IMO. :|

And did anyone else see the story about Alberto changing his hair colour

:lol:
(More media smoke and mirrors... not relevant, before-if you understand the test
and irrelevant, now. :wink: )
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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby jules21 » Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:27 am

brentono wrote:
And did anyone else see the story about Alberto changing his hair colour

:lol:
(More media smoke and mirrors... not relevant, before-if you understand the test and irrelevant, now. :wink: )

how is it irrelevant? the german table tennis player Dimitrij Ovtcharov presented hair samples to support his case.
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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby brentono » Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:31 am

jules21 wrote:
Mulger bill wrote: Presence of the stuff in cattle below concentration x is all fine, dandy and "negative" so all these clen doped animals can be sold as fit for consumption and presumably marketed as "clen free"?

shaun, that's a red herring. the threshold rates for cattle testing are still very low. no one gives humans or cattle clen at the tiny concentrations contador was tested at. the most likely reason contador had such a low concentration was that the clen was administered long before he transfused the blood for storage and it had broken down to an almost negligible level.

what Brentono is arguing is that the cattle testing is too insensitive to pick anything up. in fact, it's the other way around - the test used on contador was super-sensitive. additionally, the threshold levels for cyclists were also higher than those contador was tested at - it doesn't mean that in practice they can't test at lower levels, as contador discovered..

Mulger bill wrote:Much as I hate to admit this, and unlikely as it may be.... there's an element of doubt just snuck into my scone... :?

most people agree it's possible he ingested tainted meat. it's just unlikely. doubt won't get him off though - he needs proof.


With respect (Shaun is on the money) and Jules21, I think you have missed my point.
I am not arguing anything, just simply pointing out the EU levels, that show a positive, in the system.
The levels are set by the EU. Not positive doesn't mean no clenbuterol, just means below the two levels
I have already mentioned. For beef muscle 4000x Contador's result, and 10,000 times for liver and kidneys.
I know I have put up a lot of technical info, which you may or may not have read or understood, but if
you give it another try, it may become clearer. Sorry, I have tried to simplify it, a little, and much may
have been lost in the translation. I know it would go over most heads here.

You will find that some of my own points, the setting of threshold levels for all substances by the WADA,
will come to pass, as pointed out by the German Scientist, background levels of hormones, drugs etc
are ever increasing in the eco system, and even in ground water. As the WADA testing get even more
refined, a clash will result... with an excess of positives, making the system obsolete. IMO.
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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby brentono » Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:45 am

jules21 wrote:the german table tennis player Dimitrij Ovtcharov presented hair samples to support his case.


Yes, to support his case, but the test is not yet officially recognised.
The "hair-colour" story, was due to the fact that certain hair colours absorb at different rates.
It is a phenomenon, due to the natural hair colour of ethnic groups.
His hair would have absorbed the levels, irrelevant of what colour he put on it.
It's media "smoke and mirrors" and has no scientific value, and laughable when
you do know the science. :roll:
DYOR and you will see it.
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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby jules21 » Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:09 am

brentono wrote:Yes, to support his case, but the test is not yet officially recognised.

not "officially recognised" doesn't mean that it can't be used. when a test is certified, that means the doping body must take the test result at face value - such as the one that contador tested positive to for clen. an uncertified test result can still be presented as evidence - in fact the hair analysis of Dimitrij Ovtcharov was used to support his absolution.

the same goes for the plasticisers detected in contador's blood. although the test was not certified, it can still be used as evidence against him. the weight of that evidence is just less than if the test was certified.
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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby brentono » Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:21 am

jules21 wrote:
brentono wrote:Yes, to support his case, but the test is not yet officially recognised.

not "officially recognised" doesn't mean that it can't be used. when a test is certified, that means the doping body must take the test result at face value - such as the one that contador tested positive to for clen. an uncertified test result can still be presented as evidence - in fact the hair analysis of Dimitrij Ovtcharov was used to support his absolution.

the same goes for the plasticisers detected in contador's blood. although the test was not certified, it can still be used as evidence against him. the weight of that evidence is just less than if the test was certified.


You seem to be getting upset, I agreed "to support his case" :wink:

the plasticisers detected in contador's blood

Was gutter media, and played no part in the case.

Anyway, all just lipservice, now, it's a done-deal. Contador is innocent.
And is racing at present. 8)
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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby jules21 » Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:26 am

brentono wrote: You seem to be getting upset,

no
brentono wrote:I agreed "to support his case" :wink:

yes, despite the overwhelming evidence against it :)
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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby brentono » Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:38 am

Jules21,
The hair test is a legitimate one, and later it may be used officially.
But, the story about Alberto changing his hair colour, it is so rediculous
when you understand the science behind the hair test.
That was all I was saying.
Let's just stick to the facts. Have a re-read over what I have written.
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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby jules21 » Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:40 am

brentono wrote: The hair test is a legitimate one, and later it may be used officially.

you don't understand what 'official use' means. it can already be used as part of his 'official' defense or prosecution.

brentono wrote:But, the story about Alberto changing his hair colour, it is so rediculous
when you understand the science behind the hair test.

no it's ridiculous because it's a joke - as far as i can tell, this was made up by a satirical website. he never changed his hair colour.
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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby brentono » Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:52 am

jules21 wrote:no it's ridiculous because it's a joke - as far as i can tell, this was made up by a satirical website. he never changed his hair colour.


You had better let the "best" part of these bike-forums know that, along with the gutter press,
as it won't be long before they'll be taking it as gospel...
as they have with most of the other "smoke and mirrors" dis-information. :lol:
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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby twizzle » Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:26 am

jules21 wrote:no it's ridiculous because it's a joke - as far as i can tell, this was made up by a satirical website. he never changed his hair colour.


Ah, wondered about that, it wasn't clear if there was any basis to the story, and all other references to Alberto's hair color are on websites which are blocked from here. In hindsight, the 'Dopcheck' surname should have given me a hint. Then again, I though the UCI doping clearing committee story was total BS until I checked more sites and found out it was true!


Slightly OT - raced on the weekend, and the winner of our grade got disqualified because he stopped to check his rear tyre about 100m short of a turn-around and then rejoined when we came back only to sprint off into the distance when we came to the final hill before the finish. I though it was very appropriate that he was wearing a LiveStrong jersey.
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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby Chuck » Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:45 pm

brentono wrote:Now that Contador had been found not guilty by his federation and the UCI


Have the UCI cleared Contador ?



Professor Gerard Dine remains unconvinced....

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/french- ... rs-samples
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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby jules21 » Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:48 pm

twizzle wrote:Then again, I though the UCI doping clearing committee story was total BS until I checked more sites and found out it was true!

yeah that one is for real :)
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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby brentono » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:52 pm

Chuck wrote:
brentono wrote:Now that Contador had been found not guilty by his federation and the UCI


Have the UCI cleared Contador ?



Professor Gerard Dine remains unconvinced....

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/french- ... rs-samples

Yep, time to catch-
up... Chuck.
Doh. :lol:
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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby Chuck » Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:43 pm

brentono wrote:
Chuck wrote:
brentono wrote:Now that Contador had been found not guilty by his federation and the UCI


Have the UCI cleared Contador ?



Professor Gerard Dine remains unconvinced....

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/french- ... rs-samples

Yep, time to catch-
up... Chuck.
Doh. :lol:
:mrgreen:


Fair enough :|

Your thoughts on the link from my quote ??
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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby fats » Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:47 am

Forgive my ignorence but is the ICF part of the UCI? I can't seem to find much info when I Google it besides some Belgium site that doesn't say much and there is no reference to ICF on the UCI wweb site. :? If they are part of the UCI then why doesn't the UCI web site say that he has been cleared?

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