Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby brentono » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:12 pm

jules21 wrote: the steak excuse appears to be BS.


But Ramos says there was plenty of indirect evidence that helped to clear Contador. "We showed that the testing for clenbuterol in cattle is not infallible in Europe," he says. "There is a European Union norm – 96/23/CE, dating from 1996 – which states that only 0.25 per cent of cattle should be tested for clenbuterol. So 99.75 per cent are not.

"During the very same period the Spanish Ministry of Agriculture says that there have been no positives for clenbuterol in [Spanish] cattle. But we've shown that the police have gone on arresting people for using clenbuterol and other banned substances in their livestock." As for the offending cow itself, "The Basque Government gave us three possibilities, and curiously enough, the owner of the one that was most likely to be it is in partnership with his brother, who was penalised a few years back for using clenbuterol.

"So when WADA [the World Anti-Doping Authority] says it is impossible that the banned substance clenbuterol could be found in Spanish cattle, that's like saying, ‘Cocaine is banned, end of story'."

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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby jules21 » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:17 pm

brentono, all that does is raise doubt over the possibility that the steak may have been contaminated with clen. that's a long way short of the proof needed to clear contador. the spanish ruling appears to be in direction contravention of the UCI doping rules.
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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby brentono » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:32 pm

jules21 wrote:brentono, all that does is raise doubt over the possibility that the steak may have been contaminated with clen. that's a long way short of the proof needed to clear contador. the spanish ruling appears to be in direction contravention of the UCI doping rules.


WADA make the rules, and there are many flaws in them (the UCI don't make the rules)

Ramos states "But there's a clause that frees him of that responsibility if he can demonstrate
there was no intentional negligence.
We proved that, and that was the key to his defence.
From day one his defence was based around that clause."


Even the list of banned substances is a joke, is alcohol or marijuana a PED (they're banned). :?: :roll:
Yet ephedrine, caffeine and many more (which are performance enhancing) are allowed to certain levels. :?
Much problemo in the system.

I am all for "level playing field"... allow everything. :|
All the info about it here.
http://sportsanddrugs.procon.org/
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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby sogood » Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:15 pm

brentono wrote:I am all for "level playing field"... allow everything. :|

I rest my case on you! :mrgreen:
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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby brentono » Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:01 pm

sogood wrote:
brentono wrote:I am all for "level playing field"... allow everything. :|

I rest my case on you! :mrgreen:


Hook.Line.Sinker. :roll:
(... since when did you have a case. :lol: )
Shows you how much you know, there's a lot of high-level, very intelligent debate going on about pro/con. :|
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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby heay » Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:20 pm

Rules are rules. If you are an elite athlete than you must understand that you can trust no one, the only person whom I trusted was my wife as she got me back into the competive side of running back in the year 2000. I had an understanding of the rules the items which you could take and not take. If his team (whom should know better) can not obey the rules than so he should be banned.

I however do understand the the level is so extreme that there needs to be a threshold level as there is with many other drugs but until than he has come up positive and needs to prove completely that he did not take it.

When the test for the blood bags comes in they will retest the samples and we will be going through the whole process again. How will he explain that. Ohhh the cow had a blood transfusion..... :lol: I would like to see that one stand up as a defense.
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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby sogood » Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:30 pm

brentono wrote:Shows you how much you know, there's a lot of high-level, very intelligent debate going on about pro/con. :|

Lots of convolution to support your thesis that,
UCI and WADA can appeal, though I doubt they will.

And your preference in the area of doping control,
I am all for "level playing field"... allow everything.

No more convolution is required nor meaningful. Time will tell, and soon. :P
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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby Chuck » Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:07 am

Ramos states "But there's a clause that frees him of that responsibility if he can demonstrate
there was no intentional negligence.
We proved that, and that was the key to his defence.
From day one his defence was based around that clause."


Ramos is kidding, they couldn't find any contaminated meat from the supplier. Their evidence actually raises doubt and proves nothing.

I'd hate to be judged by his level of "proof".
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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby brentono » Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:16 am

There is a coming Storm. You have Pharmaceutical Organisations, Sporting Bodies,
Arbitration Panels and Lawyers, all trying to interpret an anti-doping policy that will work,
and there's where it gets very complicated.

Pharmaceutical methods, having shown discrepancies,
International Sporting Organisations (member state panels) and National Federations,
that have national interests.
Arbitration Panels and Lawyers, who must interpret the rules and codes,
and make judgements on their outcomes. It is very disorganised.

What is the level of Clenbuterol, that would a performance enhancing level :?:
(if a threshold was to be set) :?:

What is the background level of Clenbuterol, attributed to environmental exposure :?:
(you would have to know this on a National/International basis, before you could set a threshold)

This is some of the reasoning, that many prohibited substances don't have thresholds set
(it's just Too! difficult)

Though it has no relevance to Contador's case...
Let's talk about plasticizers (forumites, and media seem to want to keep bringing it up.) :roll:

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has been monitoring the presence of so-called “plasticizers” in human tissue for more than 40 years. Concerns were raised about the possible toxic effects of a family of industrial chemicals known as phthalates back in the 1970s. One of the most commonly used is di(2-ethylhexyl) phthalate, or DEHP.

It is that chemical, DEHP, that has raised eyebrows about Alberto Contador’s samples at the WADA-certified laboratory in Cologne, Germany. In addition to finding trace amounts of clenbuterol, the lab also found “high levels” of DEHP. DEHP is used in the production of medical equipment, such as blood bags and IV tubes. Case closed, right?

The problem is that DEHP and other phthalates are commonly used in all sorts of things, not just medical devices. DEHP is used as a plasticizer in polyvinyl chloride (PVC). You probably come in contact with PVC dozens, if not hundreds, of times a day. Some of it is plasticized (softened) with phthalates and in other cases it is not. PVC is used in floor tiles, furniture upholstery, packaging material, the plastic film used to wrap meats in the supermarket, toys, water and sewage pipes. The hard versions, like those white water pipes you commonly see, have little or no plasticizer. The softened versions have higher levels.

When it comes to DEHP, what is a reasonable level? If level X can be attributed to environmental exposure, where do you draw the line that tells the finders of fact in a doping case that there is strong evidence to suggest a violation?

It’s not that the question can’t be resolved. It’s a debate that may have a sound and very reasonable outcome. It’s just that the debate is probably one that is currently under way.

The point of the pro/con debate becomes quite relevant when you take this ALL into account.
At least it's another point of view, take a look.
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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby jules21 » Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:42 am

contador reportedly had 7 x normal levels of plasticisers in his blood. this is not explained by environmental exposure, which even if it was a feasible explanation, would have needed to have coincided with the timing of his ingestion of clen tainted beef. you can argue that these things are possible - but how many unlikely events just happened to coincide with eachother? it beggars belief.

a far more likely explanation is what many people long suspected he and other top TdF pros have engaged in - with some previously being caught - blood doping.
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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby brentono » Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:51 pm

jules21 wrote:contador reportedly had 7 x normal levels of plasticisers in his blood.

It would seem, you are reporting it, yes :roll:
Where is the official laboratory report of these levels, I would be interested to see the link. :?:

And if you had taken a look at my excerpt, straight off velonews.
There is no normal level, set, yet for DEHP, it is still being debated, as to it's relevance.
So it would be quite hard to see what "7 x normal levels of plasticisers in his blood" actually means. :?:
Just another bit of "gutter media" ... you are repeating, goes quite well, along with the rest. :)
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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby jules21 » Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:05 pm

brentono wrote: Where is the official laboratory report of these levels, I would be interested to see the link.


from here:
(German TV station) ARD has obtained the exact values from Spain.


brentono wrote: There is no normal level, set, yet for DEHP, it is still being debated, as to it's relevance.

epidemeological studies of DEHP would be used to establish 'normal' levels. i think you have delusions of grandeur if you believe you have the credibility to cast doubt on findings of qualified medical professionals.

also from the article:
“There are other, very, very incriminating suspicious facts against Contador. Other values have appeared that are ten times over the higher value from so-called plasticizers [such as di-(2-ethylhexyl)phthalate (DEHP) – ed.] which are used in blood bags. These values were measured one day before the positive dope control. These blood bag softener values could indicate that autologous blood doping may have been performed.”
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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby brentono » Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:41 pm

jules21 wrote:
also from the article:
“There are other, very, very incriminating suspicious facts against Contador. Other values have appeared that are ten times over the higher value from so-called plasticizers [such as di-(2-ethylhexyl)phthalate (DEHP) – ed.] which are used in blood bags. These values were measured one day before the positive dope control. These blood bag softener values could indicate that autologous blood doping may have been performed.”


Also
Seppelt didn’t reveal the source for his information about the plasticizer values

:lol: So nothing new here, HEARSAY :!:

epidemeological studies of DEHP would be used to establish 'normal' levels

That probably would be correct, but there are NO levels set, as yet by WADA, probably because WHO
have not set any world-wide levels.
(then there is always the fact that levels attributed to environmental exposure would be rising daily/weekly/yearly)
Nice try. :wink:
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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby MichaelB » Fri Feb 25, 2011 2:21 pm

The below article from Velonews has some salient points, one of them being ;

Not having read more than the small pieces of the RFEC decision [url]that have been made public[/url], I am reluctant to attack the reasoning used in reaching the conclusions. note : my emphasis

All the web speculation in the world and linked references for BOTH sides, means it is just speculation of both sides as to the whys and wherefores and what will ultimately happen. Only a few people (RFEC, UCI & WADA) REALLY have all the facts.

Velonews version of some Contador Questions

Still think he is guilty as sin, and should be banned for the full 2 years :twisted:
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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby brentono » Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:36 pm

MichaelB wrote:The below article from Velonews has some salient points,
Velonews version of some Contador Questions


Further to that the-explainer followed up...

http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/02/news/the-explainer-equal-treatment-for-winners-and-the-wiggle-room-in-the-rules_161434

... the Code allows for the absence of intent to be raised as an affirmative defense. In other words, the burden of showing the absence of intent rests on the “defendant,” a point underscored at the end of Article 10.5.2:

When a Prohibited Substance or its Markers or Metabolites is detected in an Athlete’s Specimen in violation of Article 2.1 (presence of Prohibited Substance), the Athlete must also establish how the Prohibited Substance entered his or her system in order to have the period of Ineligibility reduced.

That’s the basis for the recent Contador decision. Contador’s attorneys were able to show “to the comfortable satisfaction” of the hearing panel that he had accidentally ingested a small amount of clenbuterol by consuming tainted beef.


Still have difficulty seeing either WADA or UCI (severely or jointly) coming up with anything new to sway
the CAS, into accepting an appeal, (and if they do) to convince the CAS to uphold their appeal.
It's a long-shot for my money. But we will just have to wait and see.
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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby jules21 » Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:41 pm

brentono wrote:It's a long-shot for my money.

it's just a pity i can't ask you to actually put your money on the table. something tells me you would be more reluctant to do so, than you are to fire from the hip on here :)
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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby brentono » Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:46 pm

jules21 wrote:
brentono wrote:It's a long-shot for my money.

it's just a pity i can't ask you to actually put your money on the table. something tells me you would be more reluctant to do so, than you are to fire from the hip on here :)

Ooooooooogah!! pissing challenge :roll: :lol:
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/for+my+money
(grow up)
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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby Chuck » Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:32 pm

brentono wrote:Just another bit of "gutter media" ...


brentono wrote:So nothing new here, HEARSAY :!:


brentono it does absolutely nothing for the development of the debate to cut down every link and exerpt quoted by others who may not share your view and then expect everything that you post up to be taken as gospel. What you post up was written by "people" and is just as fallible as anything posted up by those with a different opinion to yours.

There are some members who come to this thread to genuinely discuss the issues and who take the time to read your points and to offer considered replies (I do not include myself here, but there is one member in particular who fits the bill). How about replying with the respect that their contribution deserves.
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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby toolonglegs » Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:55 pm

I'd rather listen to !!! warning virus !!! than sift thru all the ignored posts.

Really ... S H A K I R A can't even be said on the forum...come on please :roll:
Last edited by toolonglegs on Fri Feb 25, 2011 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby heay » Fri Feb 25, 2011 7:15 pm

So now the defense case has been released.

They have the recipt for the meat but can they prove that he ate it? Also the other question needs to be raised is why did they by meat from another country when they were in France? To me something still does not add up.
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Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby sogood » Fri Feb 25, 2011 7:25 pm

heay wrote:So now the defense case has been released.

They have the recipt for the meat but can they prove that he ate it? Also the other question needs to be raised is why did they by meat from another country when they were in France? To me something still does not add up.

Every team has grocery and food receipts, so it's a case of so what! What's to prove the meat was tainted? The loop of explanation is still open.
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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby wombatK » Fri Feb 25, 2011 9:48 pm

Chuck wrote:brentono it does absolutely nothing for the development of the debate to cut down every link and exerpt quoted by others who may not share your view and then expect everything that you post up to be taken as gospel. What you post up was written by "people" and is just as fallible as anything posted up by those with a different opinion to yours.

There are some members who come to this thread to genuinely discuss the issues and who take the time to read your points and to offer considered replies... How about replying with the respect that their contribution deserves.

+10. Something that should be a rule for every forum.
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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby martinjs » Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:41 pm

I'm all for a good debate, but this one has run it's course I suspect. I doubt if 100 more pages come up that it will change any ones mind. Let's give the judges a say and bide by it.

I have been following this tread with interest, although I don't know enough to actually debate it I think it's starting to go in cycles :lol: or is that circles.
Remind me of the old school yards fights' :lol: I'm right, no I'm right, no I'm right. Well you get the picture. :D 8)

In actual fact I'm right. :lol: :wink: (not sure what about though.)

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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby Chuck » Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:17 am

martinjs wrote:I'm all for a good debate, but this one has run it's course I suspect. I doubt if 100 more pages come up that it will change any ones mind. Let's give the judges a say and bide by it.

I have been following this tread with interest, although I don't know enough to actually debate it I think it's starting to go in cycles :lol: or is that circles.
Remind me of the old school yards fights' :lol: I'm right, no I'm right, no I'm right. Well you get the picture. :D 8)

In actual fact I'm right. :lol: :wink: (not sure what about though.)

Martin


Fair call :)
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Re: Alberto Contador tests positive for clenbuterol

Postby brentono » Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:57 am

You of all people Chuck, to tell me how to conduct my posts, you, who regularly are the offender. :roll:
Then there is the bloke, who is right up behind you :) ... who is ignoring me, but always has a snide comment. :wink:
And your little group, yes it is so "school play-yard" and amusing...
(and I can play as "hard" as anyone wants :twisted: )
If you care to go through all of my posts, I probably am the only one,
that has stuck to the debate.
There are the standard few, that have nothing to provide,
just stupid comments.
Then there is the ones, that as soon as it goes against them,
and they have no reply, they get personal.
In the same tone that you have framed your post about respect,
I have (mostly) ignored the disrespect shown to me, and stuck to the topic...
and have tried to simplfy the technical points
(with my studies and 5 years in this very field) as I know most of it goes over "peoples" heads.
Jules21 "having a personal shot" came as a bit of a shock,
as he had put up many good points, some earlier which I agreed with,
but now we are going over all the same ground, and I don't agree (unsubstantiated, at that)
You, and a few others here, seem to think that I have no right to an opinion,
as it differs from yours.
As I have pretty well summed up, an appeal...
It's a long-shot for my money. But we will just have to wait and see.
Not much more to say... (re:the debate) is there.
(but I'm sure there will be one or more... getting personal :roll: )
:mrgreen:
Note:I understand more now than I did at the beginning, and the trouble isn't about Contador,
the trouble is the problems at all levels, within all the "organisations" regarding anti-doping.
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