Cancellara hour record

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Cancellara hour record

Postby warthog1 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:57 am

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cancellara-to-tackle-hour-record
Should be good if he has a crack. I reckon he can top 50.0 km/h. :o
It'll be great if it inspires Tony Martin, Wiggo and the like to have a go also.
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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby ldrcycles » Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:39 pm

Why Grenchen? Do the UCI restrictions prohibit attempting the record at altitude? If not I would have thought that Mexico City or somewhere like that would be the logical place to go.
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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby vander » Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:47 pm

Why would you do it at altitude, where there is less O2 available thus your sustainable power will be decreased. High altitude is only good for sprint events (where that doesnt matter) for endurance events its a big no-no.
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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby ldrcycles » Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:50 pm

Merckx and Moser both did it in Mexico City, when you're getting towards 50kmh aerodynamics start to get pretty important.
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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby vander » Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:57 pm

When you are pushing >400W aerobic capacity is pretty important.
Merckx atleast we know was doped, not sure about Moser but its more than likely he was also, being doped changes things a bit.
Alex may be able to help here but I would expect the loss of aerobic capacity at altitude would outweigh the aero gains.
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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby find_bruce » Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:02 pm

Moser later admitted to blood doping in his hour record ride
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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby vander » Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:05 pm

In saying that there is plenty of innuendo about Canc being one of Fuentes clients so he will most likely be doped also (he would of found himself a new doc).
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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:18 pm

ldrcycles wrote:Merckx and Moser both did it in Mexico City, when you're getting towards 50kmh aerodynamics start to get pretty important.

The vast majority of hour records have been set at/near sea level. It mostly to so with the location of fast indoor tracks.

There is a trade off between reduced air resistance at altitude that increases speed for a given power, and reduced power output as a result of reduced oxygen availability.

There is a sweet "range" of altitude, if sufficiently fast track were available. Since they are talking about a track in Switzerland at an altitude of 460 metres, that's pretty neutral and in the lower end of the sweet range.

At that altitude he'll need ~ 450W or more with CdA of 0.28m^2 or less.

Boardman for the same record in Manchester was ~ 400W (AT) ~ 0.24m^2 - Boardman is somewhat more aerodynamic than Cancellara.
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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby warthog1 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:43 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
At that altitude he'll need ~ 450W or more with CdA of 0.28m^2 or less.

Boardman for the same record in Manchester was ~ 400W (AT) ~ 0.24m^2 - Boardman is somewhat more aerodynamic than Cancellara.


So do you reckon he has a shot at beating it then?
He is pretty aero in tt position I'm assuming. Can he not assume a slightly lower position for the hour record? Or is the worse aero compared to Boardman due to a larger body?
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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:56 pm

warthog1 wrote:So do you reckon he has a shot at beating it then?
He is pretty aero in tt position I'm assuming. Can he not assume a slightly lower position for the hour record? Or is the worse aero compared to Boardman due to a larger body?

This is the hour record, to be ridden on a very standard round tubed track bike with normal handlebars, regular spoked wheels with low profile rims and no pointy aero helmets. The aerodynamics one needs to attain with the restrictive equipment provisions are therefore somewhat more challenging to achieve.

Cancellara is a biggish guy and so he will need to work a lot to achieve the combination of aero and power required to be in with a chance. He generally paces pretty well in road longer TTs, so that's an advantage.

There are several other technical and execution elements involved, but they are relatively small (but not unimportant) compared to the aerodynamics challenge. Even something such as time of year and probabilities around weather conditions, barometric pressure especially if the interior track is climate controlled keeping in mind you have to give at least one month's notice to UCI of the time and date of the attempt.

Can he do it? Yes, but it certainly is not a walkover/sure thing.
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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby RonK » Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:33 pm

ldrcycles wrote:Why Grenchen? Do the UCI restrictions prohibit attempting the record at altitude? If not I would have thought that Mexico City or somewhere like that would be the logical place to go.

Have you not noticed that Grenchen is in Switzerland, and Cancellara is a Swiss national?
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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby warthog1 » Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:58 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
Can he do it? Yes, but it certainly is not a walkover/sure thing.


Does he have to wear a helmet? It would be unlikely Merckx had a helmet on.
This will be harder for him than I thought.
He'll still smash it though. The bloke is a machine.
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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby ldrcycles » Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:50 pm

RonK wrote:
ldrcycles wrote:Why Grenchen? Do the UCI restrictions prohibit attempting the record at altitude? If not I would have thought that Mexico City or somewhere like that would be the logical place to go.

Have you not noticed that Grenchen is in Switzerland, and Cancellara is a Swiss national?


That hadn't occurred to me, but when you're attempting a record like this I would have thought you would just go to the best track, like when Chris Hoy went to La Paz to attempt the kilo record (not that the very high altitude of La Paz would be remotely suited to the hour record).
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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby toolonglegs » Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:13 pm

warthog1 wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
Can he do it? Yes, but it certainly is not a walkover/sure thing.


Does he have to wear a helmet? It would be unlikely Merckx had a helmet on.
This will be harder for him than I thought.
He'll still smash it though. The bloke is a machine.

Yes he needs to wear a helmet... Merckx wore a helmet ( well leather strappy thing )... Though merckx's "helmet" was probably quite a bit more aero than modern day ones... Not sure if they can use the more aerodynamic road helmets that are around these days?
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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby RonK » Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:38 am

ldrcycles wrote:
RonK wrote:
ldrcycles wrote:Why Grenchen? Do the UCI restrictions prohibit attempting the record at altitude? If not I would have thought that Mexico City or somewhere like that would be the logical place to go.

Have you not noticed that Grenchen is in Switzerland, and Cancellara is a Swiss national?


That hadn't occurred to me, but when you're attempting a record like this I would have thought you would just go to the best track, like when Chris Hoy went to La Paz to attempt the kilo record (not that the very high altitude of La Paz would be remotely suited to the hour record).

I think there is probably more to it than setting a new record. Grenchen is the home of BMC, and the Velodrome Suisse project was initiated by BMC owner Andy Rihs. According Rihs, it will be the fastest track in Europe. It was opened recently, and to celebrate a stage of the Tour of Romandie finished outside (even though Grenchen is not in Romandie).

Cancellara has been a supporter since its inception, and no doubt an event such as the one hour record attempt would be a big drawcard and assist in the tracks financial success.
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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:49 am

Ironically, the bike Merckx used would not pass the UCI's current bike regulations for the hour record.
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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:58 am

ldrcycles wrote:That hadn't occurred to me, but when you're attempting a record like this I would have thought you would just go to the best track, like when Chris Hoy went to La Paz to attempt the kilo record (not that the very high altitude of La Paz would be remotely suited to the hour record).

Find me a fast indoor velodrome at say 800-1500 metres.

New tracks aren't always faster either, some get better with age.
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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby warthog1 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:04 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Ironically, the bike Merckx used would not pass the UCI's current bike regulations for the hour record.


Good old cardigan wearing UCI :roll:
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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby ldrcycles » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:26 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
ldrcycles wrote:That hadn't occurred to me, but when you're attempting a record like this I would have thought you would just go to the best track, like when Chris Hoy went to La Paz to attempt the kilo record (not that the very high altitude of La Paz would be remotely suited to the hour record).

Find me a fast indoor velodrome at say 800-1500 metres.

New tracks aren't always faster either, some get better with age.


What makes a track fast? I've never even seen a velodrome, so i'm completely ignorant of such things.
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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:36 pm

ldrcycles wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
ldrcycles wrote:That hadn't occurred to me, but when you're attempting a record like this I would have thought you would just go to the best track, like when Chris Hoy went to La Paz to attempt the kilo record (not that the very high altitude of La Paz would be remotely suited to the hour record).

Find me a fast indoor velodrome at say 800-1500 metres.

New tracks aren't always faster either, some get better with age.


What makes a track fast? I've never even seen a velodrome, so i'm completely ignorant of such things.

Primarily:
- the track surface is made of a special type of wood and is very smooth to ride on (nearly half the rolling resistance of a typical road), and because it is also "pristine" it also means you can use very fast but somewhat less durable tyres.
- the track is enclosed, removing the effects of wind which on an outdoor track would very rarely be an aid to performance
- the air is heated (warm air is less dense enabling you to travel faster for the same power output)
- of the other things that affect air density, i.e. altitude, barometric pressure, and humidity, the latter is insignificant, and we as yet do not control the air pressure in a velodrome, hence left with the altitude the track is located.
- the track geometry (e.g. Moscow's velodrome is a sprinter's favourite for 200 metre fly times)
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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby Derny Driver » Sat Jul 13, 2013 2:35 am

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Find me a fast indoor velodrome at say 800-1500 metres.

.

Interesting that the Vigorelli velodrome in Milan (built 1935) was the choice of hour record venue from 1935 to 1967. At 120 metres altitude and outdoor (semi covered), makes you wonder why it was so fast. 400 metres and a wood surface .... Coppi liked it, and Riviere etc
The fastest indoor track in those days was the Hallenstadiun at Zurich, built 1939 at 400 metres altitude, 250 metres wood indoor (covered by a glass roof and sides) .... the sprinters choice used for many years by Harris, Derksen, Plattner, Pfenninger et al
The derny world record was set at Vel d'Hiv Paris and Antwerp Sportpalais in those days. They were regarded as fast tracks too, heaps of records were set on Vel d'Hiv, madisons etc
In the absence of sports scientists, the riders just decided which tracks were preferred :D
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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby singlespeedscott » Sat Jul 13, 2013 9:14 am

warthog1 wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Ironically, the bike Merckx used would not pass the UCI's current bike regulations for the hour record.


Good old cardigan wearing UCI :roll:

Things like the hour record need to be about the rider not the technological advances of the time.

The only non-UCI compliance of Merckx bike was the weight. It only came in at 5.5kg.

This begs the question as to why the UCI's bike weight limit is 6.8kg?
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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sat Jul 13, 2013 1:34 pm

Derny Driver wrote:In the absence of sports scientists, the riders just decided which tracks were preferred :D

Knowing what's fast and knowing why it's fast are two different things. :D
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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sat Jul 13, 2013 1:47 pm

singlespeedscott wrote:Things like the hour record need to be about the rider not the technological advances of the time.

Sure but the problem is the same standard hasn't been applied to all the other timed events such as the individual and team pursuits, the kilo TT, or even the flying 200m TT, so why is the hour record singled out in this way? That's what makes no sense.

singlespeedscott wrote:The only non-UCI compliance of Merckx bike was the weight. It only came in at 5.5kg.

6.5kg?

As for the weight limit, well the issue is the UCI being concerned at one time for the safety of bikes as new materials and production techniques emerged and frame failures started creeping in (which is fair enough) but the problem being what standard can you apply so that can be effectively policed by race officials? I suppose they figured that by setting a lower weight limit it meant that the frames would at least be sufficiently beefy to reduce the probability of them becoming a safety problem. Obviously you cannot eliminate it.

That's not to say bikes cannot be safely made lighter, but what else would you suggest? How can a race official readily and fairly quickly test something for compliance?
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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby warthog1 » Sat Jul 13, 2013 2:03 pm

singlespeedscott wrote:Things like the hour record need to be about the rider not the technological advances of the time.

The only non-UCI compliance of Merckx bike was the weight. It only came in at 5.5kg.

This begs the question as to why the UCI's bike weight limit is 6.8kg?


I can sympathise to a certain extent with that argument. However at some point you need to allow for innovation. We would otherwise be riding penny farthings.

I personally like their stance on the weight limit. It keeps costs half way affordable.
So I whinge about their recalcitrance on the one hand and embrace it on the other. :roll:
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