Cancellara hour record

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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby stevecassidy » Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:10 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
singlespeedscott wrote:Things like the hour record need to be about the rider not the technological advances of the time.

Sure but the problem is the same standard hasn't been applied to all the other timed events such as the individual and team pursuits, the kilo TT, or even the flying 200m TT, so why is the hour record singled out in this way? That's what makes no sense.


I'm just reading The Race Against Time by Edward Pickering about the rivalry between Boardman and Obree, just up to the part where the UCI banned Obree's position by introducing just enough rules to stop him. They would introduce a new rule, he'd modify the bike or his position to comply with it, they would introduce another rule and so on. The book argues that it was because he was an outsider (coming from the UK time trialing scene) and when Moser failed to break the record using a variation on Obree's position the response was to try to get rid of him by banning the position.

I think it will be great to see Spartacus attempt the record, maybe it should be required of the TT world champion to make an attempt each year.

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by BNA » Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:30 pm

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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby singlespeedscott » Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:30 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
singlespeedscott wrote:Things like the hour record need to be about the rider not the technological advances of the time.

Sure but the problem is the same standard hasn't been applied to all the other timed events such as the individual and team pursuits, the kilo TT, or even the flying 200m TT, so why is the hour record singled out in this way? That's what makes no sense.

Because the hour record is the one that everybody cares about.
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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby warthog1 » Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:37 pm

singlespeedscott wrote:Because the hour record is the one that everybody cares about.


Evidence?

Certainly every man and his dog are not lining up to have a crack. :P
I thought it was good Fab is having ago 'cause it may renew interest in something that the modern riders haven't given a freck about of recent times.
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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby singlespeedscott » Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:11 pm

warthog1 wrote:I thought it was good Fab is having ago 'cause it may renew interest in something that the modern riders haven't given a freck about of recent times.

They haven't lined up to do it because it is so damn hard.
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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby Walsh95 » Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:12 am

warthog1 wrote:
singlespeedscott wrote:Because the hour record is the one that everybody cares about.


Evidence?

Certainly every man and his dog are not lining up to have a crack. :P
I thought it was good Fab is having ago 'cause it may renew interest in something that the modern riders haven't given a freck about of recent times.


It's supposed to represent the improvement of cyclists themselves, not the equipment they use. With the equipment used today, I'm sure that some track cyclists beat Merckx's record regularly in training. The hour record is about proving yourself as being the best ever regardless of your bike.
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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby Rhubarb » Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:51 pm

The image below comes from Hour Record article in wikipedia and shows the progressive improvements in the hour record times over the years.

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The blue line is UCI compliant bikes, the green line shows non UCI compliant bikes, and the red line is faired recumbents / streamliners.

As a velomobile (3 wheeled fully faired recumbent) owner, I find these comparisons very interesting indeed. There is a lot happening in the world of velomobiles at the moment which is resulting in a flow down of technological improvements from these record breaking machines into practical street rideable vehicles that enable even people with very average athletic ability to achieve great speeds.

So whilst I understand the UCI regulations that try to maintain a level playing field, the unfortunate downside is that so many people are completely unaware of what is possible via human power, simply because it doesn't capture the mass publicity that UCI racing does. I also feel sorry for the likes of Boardman (green line above) who's incredible efforts have been left in no mans land, ie they are not UCI compliant (blue line), nor are they the best human effort (red line) despite being labelled as such.

The european velomobile racing scene is dominated by a guy called Daniel Fenn who seems to win most of the races. He races a fairly practical 3 wheeled velomobile called an Evo Ks. He recently did 69.2km in the hour, but said he could have done 72 had he not had mechanical issues. The Evo Ks is practical enough to commute in and that is the thing that interests me, ie fast and practical. As good as Daniel is, I would love to see guys like Cancellara riding against him. I would love to see what is possible when the best athletes and the best technology is combined.

A guy in Brisbane has recently bought a street rideable version of a streamliner. He calls it a streetliner :-) The manufacturer claims it will do 75km/hr (AT) 210W. Can you imagine how fast it would go with Cancellara in it. :shock:
Here's a little video I made of it:
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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby singlespeedscott » Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:54 pm

That certainly would be interesting to see.
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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby gdt » Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:47 pm

I think the UCI didn't think it through. You should have to beat the hour record on the previous record-setting bike. Then within the month set a new mark using the unpowered two wheel device of your choice. Then it gets used as the bike for beating your mark. Then there's no need for the UCI to have complex technical rules to ensure that the record time is comparible.
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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby ozdavo » Sat Jul 27, 2013 6:44 am

gdt wrote:I think the UCI didn't think it through. You should have to beat the hour record on the previous record-setting bike. Then within the month set a new mark using the unpowered two wheel device of your choice. Then it gets used as the bike for beating your mark. Then there's no need for the UCI to have complex technical rules to ensure that the record time is comparible.

That couldn't work... Someone sets the record on a std bike... Someone breaks it on same bike then sets new record on some one off custom with thousands of hours in build & development, new guy comes along to try, but is a foot taller/shorter than previous guy and can't ride said one off custom... Can't just change the size/geo and call it the same bike.



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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby toolonglegs » Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:10 pm

i don't think the general public has ever heard of the hour record or the record holders except in a couple of European countries, let alone an HPV record. Generally cyclists with an interest in such things would have a fair idea... they would also have a fair idea that an HPV is much quicker. Personally I don't have much interest in an HPV record, sure they set super fast times but they do it without the best riders in the world. Yes if Fabby got in one I would take note!. The beauty of the UCI record is you only have the very best in the world trying to beat the record, technology ( mechanical, not medicinal :roll: ) doesn't come into the equation heavily so you can see how for example Fabby and Eddy line up against each other... it also shows you what EPO can do! ... Ondřej Sosenka at 200cm and close to 90 kgs! :roll: ( would love to have seen the average power on that one! :shock: ).
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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sat Jul 27, 2013 4:39 pm

toolonglegs wrote:i don't think the general public has ever heard of the hour record or the record holders except in a couple of European countries, let alone an HPV record. Generally cyclists with an interest in such things would have a fair idea... they would also have a fair idea that an HPV is much quicker. Personally I don't have much interest in an HPV record, sure they set super fast times but they do it without the best riders in the world. Yes if Fabby got in one I would take note!. The beauty of the UCI record is you only have the very best in the world trying to beat the record, technology ( mechanical, not medicinal :roll: ) doesn't come into the equation heavily so you can see how for example Fabby and Eddy line up against each other... it also shows you what EPO can do! ... Ondřej Sosenka at 200cm and close to 90 kgs! :roll: ( would love to have seen the average power on that one! :shock: ).


Mind you, former world hour record holder Graeme Obree is having a crack at the HPV record
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... ecord.html
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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby toolonglegs » Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:03 pm

47 years young :mrgreen:
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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby scotto » Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:32 am

i dont know how you could ride those recumbert streetliners. they look so weird.


god i'd love to try one !!!! :oops:
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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby ldrcycles » Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:11 pm

Wow so it's really happening!
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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby lard » Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:41 pm

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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby adamr » Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:58 pm

In reading this thread I saw a lot of discussion about the effects of altitude on cycling performance. I recalled reading an article about that very topic recently.

http://www.runnersworld.com/general-int ... to-cycling

Short story - for cycling, the decrease in air pressure up to about 2000m is a net positive even with the decrease in oxygen. Over that, it goes the other way.

For running, the same principle does not apply. The difference is in the speed. Faster speeds, greater influence of air pressure.
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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby singlespeedscott » Sun May 18, 2014 2:53 pm

warthog1 wrote:
singlespeedscott wrote:Things like the hour record need to be about the rider not the technological advances of the time.

The only non-UCI compliance of Merckx bike was the weight. It only came in at 5.5kg.

This begs the question as to why the UCI's bike weight limit is 6.8kg?


I can sympathise to a certain extent with that argument. However at some point you need to allow for innovation. We would otherwise be riding penny farthings.

I personally like their stance on the weight limit. It keeps costs half way affordable.
So I whinge about their recalcitrance on the one hand and embrace it on the other. :roll:

It looks like you have your wish Warthog

http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/05/ ... kes_328018

However it appears that Spartacus has put his effort on hold indefinitely

http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/05/ ... old_328366
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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby warthog1 » Mon May 19, 2014 10:08 am

Thanks for the link :)
Looks like he was only interested in having a crack at the historical version. I'd be interested to see what him or Tony Martin can do on a pursuit bike. It will be well into the 50's km/h
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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Mon May 19, 2014 3:17 pm

warthog1 wrote:Thanks for the link :)
Looks like he was only interested in having a crack at the historical version. I'd be interested to see what him or Tony Martin can do on a pursuit bike. It will be well into the 50's km/h

Boardman did 56.375km on his borrowed pursuit bike.
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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby warthog1 » Mon May 19, 2014 6:49 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
warthog1 wrote:Thanks for the link :)
Looks like he was only interested in having a crack at the historical version. I'd be interested to see what him or Tony Martin can do on a pursuit bike. It will be well into the 50's km/h

Boardman did 56.375km on his borrowed pursuit bike.


:o Be nice to see TM have a crack at that.
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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby find_bruce » Mon May 19, 2014 9:52 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
warthog1 wrote:Thanks for the link :)
Looks like he was only interested in having a crack at the historical version. I'd be interested to see what him or Tony Martin can do on a pursuit bike. It will be well into the 50's km/h

Boardman did 56.375km on his borrowed pursuit bike.

Do you know if it was track endurance legal at the time ? While the new rules seem sensible to me, one thing I don't get is whether any of the previous records could or should be reinstated.
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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Tue May 20, 2014 8:12 am

find_bruce wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
warthog1 wrote:Thanks for the link :)
Looks like he was only interested in having a crack at the historical version. I'd be interested to see what him or Tony Martin can do on a pursuit bike. It will be well into the 50's km/h

Boardman did 56.375km on his borrowed pursuit bike.

Do you know if it was track endurance legal at the time ? While the new rules seem sensible to me, one thing I don't get is whether any of the previous records could or should be reinstated.

Yes, the same bike set up was permitted for the pursuit (Boardman also set that record in 1996 with a 4:11.x, until Bobridge set a new mark in 2011 with 4:10.x).

Here's the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiM94C0nGW0

However what the UCI have done is to acknowledge the history, but have set the current mark to beat at Sosenka's 49.x km. Which means that many high level pro TT riders could set a new record, even if not near Boardman's record. Somewhat inconsistently though, the pursuit records were maintained and stood, while they decided to change the hour records.
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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Tue May 20, 2014 8:23 am

I should add that the UCI press release doesn't specify which bike set up rules apply, as there are 3 types of bike set ups for track: which broadly cover mass start racing; sprint events; and pursuit events. There are different rules for each. The assumption is pursuit bike rules, but it's not actually clear. It could well be mass start bike rules.
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Re: Cancellara hour record

Postby Le Mong » Tue May 20, 2014 8:35 am

Personally I think they should just finish development of what they had, take on the original plan and put a time to it then come back and hit out the modern rules too. If he is so confident he could have done it before why not have a crack at both formats?
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