Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby AUbicycles » Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:22 pm

What about his 2008 Olympic Gold Medal, the bling on that is now tarnished.

What we don't know is which successes and performance in his career were doping enhanced but to state the obvious, increased doubt can be cast... or did he "only dope once" as too many pro's have claimed.

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby AUbicycles » Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:24 am

An article in the guardian (a few weeks ago) covers a new court process (still based on Floyd Landis whistle blowing) and about USPS seeking damages.

Usually The Guardian has top-notch journalism however the author (Beau Dure) appears to be a newcomer to cycling and a Lance Armstrong fanboy.

Too much time is spent defending Armstrong because 'everyone was doping'. Neglected is the fact that his doping activity remained in question until Armstrong admitted in the staged Oprah interview. While many doubted or suspected, many still believed Armstrong was simply being targeted as he was successful.

The 'journalist' (on a brief glance) has a sensationalist approach in the stories so this may be about getting a rise (publishes with USA Today, ESPN, Fox Soccer, OZY and Popdose). But even as an opinion piece I find it disturbing that the The Guardian would move beyond presenting alternative views and questioning the status quo and onto publishing a piece that defends a person who has deceived so many people, had a big role operating dirty racing, sought to intimidate and discredit opponents and hansomely profited and continued to enjoy a wealthy lifestyle as a result (and remains a cynic and taker).

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/ ... government

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby find_bruce » Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:34 am

My mum did it - ranks right up there with "it was just the one time" on the list of pathetic excuses

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby biker jk » Sun Oct 22, 2017 6:58 am

find_bruce wrote:My mum did it - ranks right up there with "it was just the one time" on the list of pathetic excuses


Worked for Shane Warne. :lol:

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby MichaelB » Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:57 am

find_bruce wrote:My mum did it - ranks right up there with "it was just the one time" on the list of pathetic excuses


I almost spat the coffee out when I read that.

Surely they can't even think that there would be a remote possibility that'd work ?

Mind you, it was apparently a small amount ..... :roll:

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby bianchi928 » Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:20 pm

My Mum did it, just one time, when she ate steak in Spain, while carrying me and my secret twin. Mind you, she never tested positive.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby trailgumby » Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:43 am

Cancellara is under the microscope again for "mechanical doping". Ex-pro Phil Gaimon has levelled the accusation and it appears the UCI is interested.

http://road.cc/content/news/232020-ex-p ... dden-motor

Some interesting videos below - some of the commentariat have formed the view that he "appears to be having trouble staying on top of his pedals" ... and I have to say that view appears to have (pardon the pun) some legs to me. Take a look and form your own view:




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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:13 pm

I think Gaimon's a goose.

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby RonK » Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:56 pm

I watched it and took the view that this was some nobody trying to increase the sales of his book by throwing in a sensational claim.

As I recall one Cadel Evans won in exactly the same way, smashing everyone on the Mur then soloing 30 kms for the win.

I suspect both Evans and Cancellara both had their motor in the same place.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby fat and old » Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:12 am

i had never registered Gaimon until he retired and decided to make money out of being himself. Goose is generous. Is he the one with the anti-doping tat?

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby fat and old » Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:34 am

So El Presidente has come out and said

"Former dopers have no place in the sport of cycling. To say anything else is hypocritical. All cyclists must stand for one goal: Cycling must be credible, otherwise everything is lost," Lappartient told Luxembourger Wort, using Riis as an example


OK. So do I expect to see an empty Tour De France backstage this year? No Merckx? No Hinault? No.....Virenque?

Why do these fellas insist on making fools of themselves when they get the big chair?

Oh...and Gaimon is still a douche :lol:

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby AUbicycles » Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:56 am

Team Sky are off the hook because of a “lack of medical evidence”.

A number of tainted ex-pros linger (including ones who actually admitted) and when I can’t see any attempt to make amends by genuinely giving back, they continue to just take and profit... it frustrates me how much tolerance there is.

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby MichaelB » Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:53 am

Saw the headlines and had to laugh. Shows what a joke the process was.

Should remember though that no charges has nothing to do with guilt. The lot should be sacked and a clean slate started, otherwise the suspicion will linger, and rightly so.

Wiggins is as dodgy as they come, but that is said without hard evidence, but plenty of coincidental dodgy stuff.

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby biker jk » Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:19 pm

It appears that the Team Sky doping controversy is not going away.

Wiggins says the package was never delivered to him.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bradley-wiggins-the-package-was-never-delivered-to-me/

Former doper David Miillar says Team Sky's use of TUEs was "extremely disappointing" and they were "gaming the system".

http://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/42033692

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby fat and old » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:10 am

And Coach Sutton....in an apparent attempt at retribution (which is the best....and worst....way to get to the truth) says

MARGINAL GAINS!!!!!

A key tenet of the Team Sky philosophy is the concept of ‘marginal gains,’ which refers to minute improvements that, collectively, can improve performance.

Asked if the use of TUEs was part of that approach, Sutton tells the documentary: “Finding the gains might mean getting a TUE? Yes, because the rules allow you to do that.”


http://www.velonews.com/2017/11/news/su ... sky_452280

Go coach!!

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby RonK » Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:12 pm

fat and old wrote:And Coach Sutton....in an apparent attempt at retribution (which is the best....and worst....way to get to the truth) says

MARGINAL GAINS!!!!!

A key tenet of the Team Sky philosophy is the concept of ‘marginal gains,’ which refers to minute improvements that, collectively, can improve performance.

Asked if the use of TUEs was part of that approach, Sutton tells the documentary: “Finding the gains might mean getting a TUE? Yes, because the rules allow you to do that.”


http://www.velonews.com/2017/11/news/su ... sky_452280

Go coach!!

No doubt we'll be seeing plenty of marginal gains from the Chinese track team now that new coach Sutton sees gaming the TUE system as legitimate.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:13 pm

Sure it seems a bit dodgy but I dunno, hard to see working within the rules as being anything but that. People bump up to the limit of rules in all aspects of the sport, on the bike, equipment and processes. Is this really any different?

It might not be within the spirit but this is pro sport, not a weekend game of family tiddlywinks.

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby g-boaf » Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:25 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Sure it seems a bit dodgy but I dunno, hard to see working within the rules as being anything but that. People bump up to the limit of rules in all aspects of the sport, on the bike, equipment and processes. Is this really any different?

It might not be within the spirit but this is pro sport, not a weekend game of family tiddlywinks.


The "spirit" of top level sports is winning. And I think you know, as everyone else knows, they'll do whatever it takes to win. And that means going to the limits of the rules or finding loopholes in them, be it in the design of bikes or whatever else it takes to win.

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:47 pm

g-boaf wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Sure it seems a bit dodgy but I dunno, hard to see working within the rules as being anything but that. People bump up to the limit of rules in all aspects of the sport, on the bike, equipment and processes. Is this really any different?

It might not be within the spirit but this is pro sport, not a weekend game of family tiddlywinks.


The "spirit" of top level sports is winning. And I think you know, as everyone else knows, they'll do whatever it takes to win. And that means going to the limits of the rules or finding loopholes in them, be it in the design of bikes or whatever else it takes to win.

Yes, and if you are within the rules then the question becomes a subjective one of ethics, not doping.

WADA may not like Sutton telling it like it is but it was really just articulating what everyone already knows goes on.

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby MichaelB » Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:54 pm

Just because it’s “allowable” (and I use that loosely) doesn’t mean it’s ethical or moral.

We had a general saying when I was racing Club Cars and it was “if it doesn’t say you can do it, then you can’t” , meaning that you can’t use your interpretation of the rules to justify that it’s allowed or ok. That’s exactly what Sutton is saying they did.

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby biker jk » Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:29 pm

Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive...

The storm engulfing Team Sky and British Cycling erupted again on Monday night.

It has emerged that the medical supplier who sent a batch of a banned substance to British Cycling's headquarters has refused to co-operate with UK Anti-Doping or the governing body's own investigation.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-5101799/Team-Sky-British-Cycling-drug-storm-erupts-again.html

I also hear that this medical supplier may not have been licensed to be selling testosterone patches.

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:40 am

MichaelB wrote:Just because it’s “allowable” (and I use that loosely) doesn’t mean it’s ethical or moral.

We had a general saying when I was racing Club Cars and it was “if it doesn’t say you can do it, then you can’t” , meaning that you can’t use your interpretation of the rules to justify that it’s allowed or ok. That’s exactly what Sutton is saying they did.

My standard response is this Venn diagram.

Image

As I said, whether something is ethical is a matter of context and is subjective. Whether one considers the permitted use of TUEs for performance advantage to be in section A or D is really just opinion. Unless and until the rules change then I don't think we can expect professional sports to be expected to do anything but push the limits.

What is and is not permitted is mostly an arbitrary line in the sand, albeit a line with a process and methodology such that for the most part it is a reasonable line. The question then is about the details of where and how that line is drawn.

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby MichaelB » Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:35 am

Don't disagree with you there Alex, and I guess the opinion formed is also based on your position in society (observer, fan, athlete, coach, IOC head etc) as well as your moral compass.
I would think that most 'reasonable' (and crikey, what is that definition !!) people would see that what Sutton expressed is correct, but not really in the spirit, but as you point out, they didn't break the rules. Much like people who invest in tax minimisation, moving to a low tax country etc etc.

If the groups and powers to be don't like what is happening, they either have to change it (redraw the line in the sand) or live with it.

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:00 am

Yes, the principle of the TUE is sound but the problem is the placement of the fulcrum on the balance arm between what's considered reasonable and unreasonable use. Moving the fulcrum one way or the other changes the balance and has other effects.

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby RonK » Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:46 am

MichaelB wrote:Don't disagree with you there Alex, and I guess the opinion formed is also based on your position in society (observer, fan, athlete, coach, IOC head etc) as well as your moral compass.
I would think that most 'reasonable' (and crikey, what is that definition !!) people would see that what Sutton expressed is correct, but not really in the spirit, but as you point out, they didn't break the rules. Much like people who invest in tax minimisation, moving to a low tax country etc etc.

Reading the UK sporting press it seems there are many in the UK cycling world who do not agree and have slammed Sutton's comments.
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