Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby toolonglegs » Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:56 pm
"Suspect" in 2004 doesn't mean "Suspect" in 2013 ... the tests have improved a lot, but by 2004 or 2013 standards, if he had finished using even a very high dose of EPO before the tour it would have long since cleared his system by the 2nd week ... that lie is pretty obvious.
"just ask Matt White and Stephen Hodge" ... personally I find it wrong that ex-dopers ( ones who only come clean when there is no other way out ) are in support roles to a younger generation. If my son or daughter ever makes it that far I would hope they would have mentors with better morals than someone that cheats and lies so blatantly in the public eye.
Only my opinion...moving on now
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby biker jk » Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:59 pm
This has already been explained (perhaps you missed it?) but both positive and suspect indicated the presence of EPO with the difference being its concentration. In 2004 when the samples were re-tested there was a very high hurdle for the EPO test, so "suspect" indicated the presence of EPO just not as high a concentration as "positive". So O'Grady still has to explain why EPO was found in his urine 11-days after the Festina scandal broke and he claimed to have stop using it.cyclotaur wrote: Surely the fact it was only 'suspect' and not 'positive' somewhat corroborates, rather than invalidates, his version. If he'd continued to use EPO into the tour he'd have tested positive. You say he's lying, but can't prove it. I'm taking him at his word for now, unless or until there is evidence to the contrary.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby vander » Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:13 pm
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby vander » Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:14 pm
Yep suspect in 04 is actually a positive. You have it right about how it works.biker jk wrote:This has already been explained (perhaps you missed it?) but both positive and suspect indicated the presence of EPO with the difference being its concentration. In 2004 when the samples were re-tested there was a very high hurdle for the EPO test, so "suspect" indicated the presence of EPO just not as high a concentration as "positive". So O'Grady still has to explain why EPO was found in his urine 11-days after the Festina scandal broke and he claimed to have stop using it.cyclotaur wrote: Surely the fact it was only 'suspect' and not 'positive' somewhat corroborates, rather than invalidates, his version. If he'd continued to use EPO into the tour he'd have tested positive. You say he's lying, but can't prove it. I'm taking him at his word for now, unless or until there is evidence to the contrary.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby cyclotaur » Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:18 pm
Fair enough then, I'm not that interested in the technicalities of testing to have understood that. So thanks for explaining it.biker jk wrote:This has already been explained (perhaps you missed it?) but both positive and suspect indicated the presence of EPO with the difference being its concentration. In 2004 when the samples were re-tested there was a very high hurdle for the EPO test, so "suspect" indicated the presence of EPO just not as high a concentration as "positive". So O'Grady still has to explain why EPO was found in his urine 11-days after the Festina scandal broke and he claimed to have stop using it.cyclotaur wrote: Surely the fact it was only 'suspect' and not 'positive' somewhat corroborates, rather than invalidates, his version. If he'd continued to use EPO into the tour he'd have tested positive. You say he's lying, but can't prove it. I'm taking him at his word for now, unless or until there is evidence to the contrary.
On the other hand we only have a few grabs from the news today to go on rather than a comprehensive explanation from him. I'm happy to wait and see if any more detail comes out on this point. But it's still 3-4 weeks in 1998, opposed to 15 more years of (taking his word for it) clean riding since.
I think if anyone wants to draw a line in history after which we should judge dopers more harshly than before, that line should be July 1998 and the Festina affair. If O'Grady and others doped then and not since I have no problems with his subsequent career. We are only talking about him now precisely because he was still relatively young at the time and was able to prosper the longer he rode and the playing field gradually levelled out.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby find_bruce » Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:34 pm
Do you have a source for the date of the EPO positive Alex ? Not doubting you, just haven't seen any report that gives detail beyond the fact of the positiveAlex Simmons/RST wrote:Yeah, except for the fact that his claimed one and only use of EPO was before the Tour, and he said "smashed them" when the Festina Affair broke (on 15 July Festina team hotel searched and 2 officials were taken into police custody) but his EPO positive was detected from a sample provided at the end of the second week of the Tour (26 July). Detection time is 2-3 days after stopping use.Joeblake wrote:I try and keep a sense of proportion. I don't condone the use of drugs in any sport, but firstly, it was in 1998, when circumstances of testing were different. Secondly, I'll be prepared to give Stewie the presumption of innocence when he says he didn't do it again.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby Chris249 » Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:49 pm
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby yarravalleyplodder » Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:51 pm
I am disappointed in O'Grady and he does drop down quite a number of pegs in my eyes. I guess many had the view if you cant beat them you join them.
I am hoping the sport is cleaner now and that the cheats will be caught and punished, not with 2 year bans but 5 & 10 year bans. I would be devastated if it turned out that Cadel, Porte and Froome were on the juice. I would still go out riding but I would still like to marvel at their magnificent efforts in climbing mountains i dont think I could walk up, let alone get a bike up, that they did that off good old fashioned hard work not having the best chemist
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby }SkOrPn--7 » Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:09 pm
I'm old school I was raised to have honesty,integrity,ethics and know right from wrong. So thanks Mum and Dad for giving me that upbringing of being tough on me with no second chances it's made me a better person today and I'm pleased when looking back on my childhood you did......thecaptn wrote:I think O'Grady is brave to come clean and makes him even more of a champion in my eyes.}SkOrPn--7 wrote:O'Grady is a disgrace and should be stripped of all awards...... A crime unpunished goes unnoticed.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby thecaptn » Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:19 pm
Praise the Lord!}SkOrPn--7 wrote:I'm old school I was raised to have honesty,integrity,ethics and know right from wrong. So thanks Mum and Dad for giving me that upbringing of being tough on me with no second chances it's made me a better person today and I'm pleased when looking back on my childhood you did......thecaptn wrote:I think O'Grady is brave to come clean and makes him even more of a champion in my eyes.}SkOrPn--7 wrote:O'Grady is a disgrace and should be stripped of all awards...... A crime unpunished goes unnoticed.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby AUbicycles » Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:28 pm
While it is possible that it was a once-off unfortunately there is a thing of 'credibility' and lying which casts very reasonable doubt on how much the details in the admission to doping can be trusted.
Lance has become holier-than-thou
"If we don't come together, have the conversation and draw a line in the sand and then move on, we're all screwed."
This is the same Lance who only tells half the truth and defrauds others for millions and ruined a lot of peoples lives.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:16 am
The testing documents were released as part of the senate report and details summarised here:find_bruce wrote:Do you have a source for the date of the EPO positive Alex ? Not doubting you, just haven't seen any report that gives detail beyond the fact of the positiveAlex Simmons/RST wrote:Yeah, except for the fact that his claimed one and only use of EPO was before the Tour, and he said "smashed them" when the Festina Affair broke (on 15 July Festina team hotel searched and 2 officials were taken into police custody) but his EPO positive was detected from a sample provided at the end of the second week of the Tour (26 July). Detection time is 2-3 days after stopping use.Joeblake wrote:I try and keep a sense of proportion. I don't condone the use of drugs in any sport, but firstly, it was in 1998, when circumstances of testing were different. Secondly, I'll be prepared to give Stewie the presumption of innocence when he says he didn't do it again.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby AndyRevill » Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:53 am
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:32 am
It wasn't pretty.AndyRevill wrote:I don't know if anyone else saw the interview with Phil Bates on ABC News24 Grandstand last night but I was left thinking they just don't get it
Andy
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby RonK » Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:44 am
See it here...AndyRevill wrote:I don't know if anyone else saw the interview with Phil Bates on ABC News24 Grandstand last night but I was left thinking they just don't get it
Andy
Wasn't it Bates that Vinnicombe was implicating...
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby schroeds » Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:47 am
I dunno...if an ex heroin user who had been convicted was teaching my kids, I wouldn't assume they were being given drugs. Maybe an extreme example but....toolonglegs wrote:Yes it is a hypothetical speculation ... but he certainly wouldn't be in as good a position as he is now.
"Suspect" in 2004 doesn't mean "Suspect" in 2013 ... the tests have improved a lot, but by 2004 or 2013 standards, if he had finished using even a very high dose of EPO before the tour it would have long since cleared his system by the 2nd week ... that lie is pretty obvious.
"just ask Matt White and Stephen Hodge" ... personally I find it wrong that ex-dopers ( ones who only come clean when there is no other way out ) are in support roles to a younger generation. If my son or daughter ever makes it that far I would hope they would have mentors with better morals than someone that cheats and lies so blatantly in the public eye.
Only my opinion...moving on now
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby RonK » Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:57 am
Would you be happy for him to be your kids ethics teacher then?schroeds wrote:I dunno...if an ex heroin user who had been convicted was teaching my kids, I wouldn't assume they were being given drugs. Maybe an extreme example but....
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby singlespeedscott » Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:22 am
There is nothing like a reformed smoker to be heavily anti-smoking though.RonK wrote:Would you be happy for him to be your kids ethics teacher then?schroeds wrote:I dunno...if an ex heroin user who had been convicted was teaching my kids, I wouldn't assume they were being given drugs. Maybe an extreme example but....
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby scotto » Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:46 am
RonK wrote:You're making excuses. There is no way you can blame pressures from sports fans.Joeblake wrote:The problem stems from the expectations the "sports lovers" of this (and other) countries places on its stars.
In the 90's hardly any Australians knew who O'Grady and the other Aussies in the peleton were.
ROFL
most still dont !!
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby Chuck » Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:48 am
Calling for Truth and Reconciliation when there's nothing stopping him from having the "conversation" with WADA or USADA right now.AUbicycles wrote: Lance has become holier-than-thou
"If we don't come together, have the conversation and draw a line in the sand and then move on, we're all screwed."
This is the same Lance who only tells half the truth and defrauds others for millions and ruined a lot of peoples lives.
Putting that to one side, I doubt that T & R will have any real impact. Look at the reaction that O'Grady is getting. While it's completely understandable I don't think that anybody will be rushing to out themselves who is not forced to. Take Jens for instance, arguably the most popular rider in the peloton, does anybody think he's going to burn it all down for the sake of cycling without evidence prompting him to?
Even when riders who haven't failed controls come forward they're met with derision.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby vander » Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:57 pm
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby Joeblake » Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:15 pm
Back in the early '80s I was involved with a community group which worked with unemployed and drug-addicted teenagers. One of the counsellors was this fellow, who had been a drug user himself.singlespeedscott wrote:There is nothing like a reformed smoker to be heavily anti-smoking though.RonK wrote:Would you be happy for him to be your kids ethics teacher then?schroeds wrote:I dunno...if an ex heroin user who had been convicted was teaching my kids, I wouldn't assume they were being given drugs. Maybe an extreme example but....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rupert_Gerritsen" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
He did very well with the young people, but did even better for himself, if you read the link.
Sure, he's only one individual, but so is SO'G.
Joe
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby BastardSheep » Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:27 pm
This is very true of how I feel, and it also accurately describes most people I've spoken to. It's not so much that they took PED's we care about, but that they lied so brazenly about it. If they could say without flinching back then that they were always clean and always will be, then why should we believe them now when they say they only took it during certain periods? That is why I have zero respect for Armstrong these days, in fact negative respect. It's why I've lost a large chunk of the respect I had for Stuart O'Grady. I still do respect him, just nowhere near as much.vander wrote:Those that come forward completely and dont lie like Hamilton and Landis are met with a lot more forgiveness. It is the lies that the public want to stop. Stuey is the perfect example of that. Continues to lie and is copping the backlash. Its about time people opened up properly.
There's some arguing that we should just make these PED's legal because there's so many other things that enhance performance too from natural genetic ability through to legal supplements. The point is that a line had been drawn in the sand by the officiating body as to what was allowed and what wasn't, and these people knowingly took something that wasn't. They violated the rules that were in place. There's also rules about minimum bike weight, you can make bikes 1-4kg below that weight that are still strong enough to be safe, but using anything below the officially sanctioned weight is still cheating because that's where the line was drawn.
For the most part people would be ok with someone's past actions if they had reformed but not lied so boastfully and with zero hesitation.
I read this morning that there were considerations to take away Stuart's Olympic gold medals from 2004. That's a whole six years later and in a completely different competition - what does that have to do with trying PED's temporarily in 1998? Removing his 2004 gold medals would be revenge, not justice. Unless they have good reason to suspect he was doping in 2004, leave him with those medals, they were earned fairly and squarely. The calls for revoking his OAM and his position at AIS etc I can understand, though.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby warthog1 » Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:03 pm
+1Chuck wrote: Look at the reaction that O'Grady is getting. While it's completely understandable I don't think that anybody will be rushing to out themselves who is not forced to. Take Jens for instance, arguably the most popular rider in the peloton, does anybody think he's going to burn it all down for the sake of cycling without evidence prompting him to?
Even when riders who haven't failed controls come forward they're met with derision.
The holier than thou outrage from people who have no idea of the culture and pressure to succeed that existed, gets a bit hard to stomach.
When there is a lifetime ban in place for PED use we may see the sport become cleaner.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling
Postby Dr_Mutley » Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:14 pm
Alex:Alex Simmons/RST wrote:The testing documents were released as part of the senate report and details summarised here:find_bruce wrote:Do you have a source for the date of the EPO positive Alex ? Not doubting you, just haven't seen any report that gives detail beyond the fact of the positiveAlex Simmons/RST wrote: Yeah, except for the fact that his claimed one and only use of EPO was before the Tour, and he said "smashed them" when the Festina Affair broke (on 15 July Festina team hotel searched and 2 officials were taken into police custody) but his EPO positive was detected from a sample provided at the end of the second week of the Tour (26 July). Detection time is 2-3 days after stopping use.
https://twitter.com/dimspace/status/360 ... 70/photo/1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Can u clarify as I'm too time poor to troll through documents, but I assumed from the reporting that when O'Grady fell into the "highly suspicious" category, that he did NOT infact test positive for EPO. He did however have highly suss blood parameters, ie markedly elevated reticulocyte counts, which was SUGGESTIVE of recent EPO administration....
Semantics I know in the scheme of things, but important if your building a time line of lies...
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