Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

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MichaelB
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby MichaelB » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:14 am

Nikolai wrote: ..... If you remove the anti-doping controls, the argument goes, everyone will rush into doing all kinds of crazy stuff. Well, says who? What is this nonsense based on? It's as if the pro peloton is made up of suicidal psychos who can't wait to kill themselves.
.....


I personally don't have the experience or knowledge from the inside like you do.

But, sadly the human reality is such that, given carte blanche, and 'arms race' WILL develop. Once someone (be it a person, team, company or government) cracks the right combination and wins, then the others will go one step further, just as they do now.

It's simple human greed. Sadly.

And those developing those methods won't always be guided by common sense, morality or desire to ensure the person/athletes well being, because there will always be plenty more willing to risk it all for there 5 minutes of fame.

Hey, I might be wrong, but history has shown that I'm not. Sadly. :|

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:23 am

There have been updates to the Goldman Dilemma research originally conducted in the 1980s which asked if athletes would be prepared to take drugs that would kill them within 5 years if it assured them of Olympic gold medal success. Back then the rates of "Yes" among elite athletes were up to 50%. Scary stuff.

More recent research in the post WADA world with better athlete understanding and knowledge of well being plus the prohibited list and anti-doping activity shows that response rate has declined significantly to about 1% among elite athletes, about the same rate when compared to the general population.

However when the question was the same but it was added that the drug would be legal/permitted, the rate increased significantly to 6% of athletes would take the drug.

So on the basis of current behavioural research, we have the situation where 6% of elite athletes would be prepared to risk their lives (death within 5 years) for performance gain via drug use if it were permitted.

When you add anti-doping control to the mix, the desire for taking such an extraordinary risk drops to the same level as the general population.

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Thoglette » Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:50 pm

Nikolai wrote:This alone is enough to ditch the hypocritical circus.

Which, the IOC or the UCI? :D Having watched the original Landis case closely, one could easily apply this to WADA and the CAS too.

But to run with your point: at this level, it has nothing to do with sports anymore and everything to do with international politics. We have international armament treaties. Which people cheat at. Do you want to give up on them too?

Coming back to sport. Every sport has its code of what you can and cannot do. Everyone is pushed, bent and broken in different ways. But we don't propose throwing away the "CAMS manual of motorsport" or similar because one person cheated on their motor.

I agree that we have created hypocritical circuses that attract risk takers (see recent studies on the likelyhood of the average pro tennis player breaking even on the tour) but the problem is to do with the "star" system rather than the rule book.

I'll put it another way: what's your view on "cyborg doping". That's the next logical step (gene doping will be going on right now), especially if we take your line of "they all dope, anyway".

Much as I disagree with some of the UCI's decisions on what is allowed in bicycle design, the same principle applies to your athletes.

The bottom line is : you have to have a rule book. If you fail to enforce it you get a (corrupt) circus. If you want a circus (cue pro wresting reference) you don't need doping to get it.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby fat and old » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:00 pm


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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:21 am

fat and old wrote:http://www.sportsintegrityinitiative.com/something-to-die-for-rebutting-the-mirkin-survey-the-goldman-dilemma/

Which essentially says what I did earlier, except the article fails to discuss the results when the subjects are asked same Faustian question but when the drug is not prohibited - that's when the response rates went right up to 6%.

IOW remove the (WADA) prohibition and sizeable number of athletes are still willing to put their mortality on the line. Even if that were 90% wrong, it'd still be an wholly unacceptable outcome of making it a free for all.

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby trailgumby » Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:26 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:IOW remove the (WADA) prohibition and sizeable number of athletes are still willing to put their mortality on the line. Even if that were 90% wrong, it'd still be an wholly unacceptable outcome of making it a free for all.

Indeed. As difficult as enforcement is, we need to do it so that young lives are not traded for temporary glory.

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby MichaelB » Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:57 pm

With the Spanish courts now not bothering with pursuing the Puerto case, I gotta wonder why.

And to add to that, one of the few that was implicated and served a ban is effectively performing better than ever. Now, I'll be honest, I don't like him because of the past deeds, but how the hell can he be even better than he was before, 8 years older than when he was banned in 2010, had what was arguably a very serious knee injury mid last year, but just keeps winning.

How is that possible ?

Either, he's the best cheater around, found a new wunder drug or he's just bloody good ?

What is it ? His experience makes him win rather than lose in some races like LBL, but is he really that good :?:

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby fat and old » Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:28 am

There's no way the Spanish authorities would allow the identities of the non-cyclists to be made public. Way too much to lose. Valverde was an easy sacrificial goat....Contador and Purito were suspected but more popular. Valverde has never had the love, even though he's one of the best all rounders there is. As for his performances post suspension, it's hard to believe he's not on the marginal gains program however I think that the reality is he's just bloody good. Really bloody good. There's always a few...Sagan being one of the current performers, Nibali as well. I think that whilst the drugs can help real talent is always there and the differences just stay constant.

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby MichaelB » Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:27 pm

fat and old wrote: ....I think that the reality is he's just bloody good. Really bloody good. There's always a few....... I think that whilst the drugs can help real talent is always there and the differences just stay constant.


But he's better than he was, and not by a small margin, and he's getting older. That's what baffles me. It's not the odd flash of brilliance.

Oh well, if he aint caught, he aint caught.

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby fat and old » Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:36 pm

Dunno....but it says heaps about people like Contador that they never regained their "form" post suspension.

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby RonK » Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:07 pm

fat and old wrote:Dunno....but it says heaps about people like Contador that they never regained their "form" post suspension.

And Michael Rogers.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby bianchi928 » Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:31 am

RonK wrote:
fat and old wrote:Dunno....but it says heaps about people like Contador that they never regained their "form" post suspension.

And Michael Rogers.


Didn't Mick win GT stages after he came back? (I think he did but I'm happy to be corrected, plus disclose that I'm a Mick Rogers fan).

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby find_bruce » Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:18 pm

& Stuart O'Grady had a bunch of wins, including Olympics & Paris Roubaix, well after he took EPO that one time in 1998 :wink:

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby fat and old » Tue Mar 27, 2018 2:55 pm

bianchi928 wrote:
RonK wrote:
fat and old wrote:Dunno....but it says heaps about people like Contador that they never regained their "form" post suspension.

And Michael Rogers.


Didn't Mick win GT stages after he came back? (I think he did but I'm happy to be corrected, plus disclose that I'm a Mick Rogers fan).

Cheers


TDF and Giro, 2014. Riding for Contador, on Bjarne Riis' team :lol: His best TDF result was while riding for T-Mobile.....

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby fat and old » Tue Mar 27, 2018 2:58 pm

find_bruce wrote:& Stuart O'Grady had a bunch of wins, including Olympics & Paris Roubaix, well after he took EPO that one time in 1998 :wink:


"I didn't inhale".

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby AUbicycles » Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:13 pm

Neal Rogers of CyclingTips reports on a settlement of Lance Armstrong with the US Department of Justice regarding defrauding the US Postal Service with his doping.

Rather than the $100 million - which is the 'fortune' Armstrong made - it is just $5 million to the US government. Of this $1.1 million goes to Landis plus an addition $1.65 million for the legal costs of Landis. This was still one of the weirder lawsuits because it is not about the real victims of Armstrongs actions.


The main thing... Lance makes a tiny payout to make up for the cheating and lying under oath... and everyone is now happy. Don't forget, it is all about Armstrong and how tough life has been on him, how he only ever worked, supported, cared and loved everyone else and has suffered the most.

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby find_bruce » Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:35 pm

Meh - one lying cheating doper who damaged cycling has to pay money to another lying cheating doper who damaged cycling.

About the only good thing out of this is that the victims of the fraudulent "Floyd Fairness Fund" should finally get paid

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby RonK » Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:26 pm

So, Westra admits to abusing TUE’s to get access to cortisone - claims the practice is widespread and teams turned a blind eye to it. Astana deny any knowledge.

Westra admits using TUEs for performance enhancement.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby biker jk » Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:57 pm

RonK wrote:So, Westra admits to abusing TUE’s to get access to cortisone - claims the practice is widespread and teams turned a blind eye to it. Astana deny any knowledge.

Westra admits using TUEs for performance enhancement.


But, but, Wiggins' TUE was legitimate, he told us so. :roll:

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby MichaelB » Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:46 am

biker jk wrote:
RonK wrote:So, Westra admits to abusing TUE’s to get access to cortisone - claims the practice is widespread and teams turned a blind eye to it. Astana deny any knowledge.

Westra admits using TUEs for performance enhancement.


But, but, Wiggins' TUE was legitimate, he told us so. :roll:


People abusing TUE's :?:

Well I never !!!

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby find_bruce » Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:50 am

MichaelB wrote:People abusing TUE's :?:

Well I never !!!
The surprising thing is that Westra has put his hand up, without AFAIK, the wavering finger of suspicion pointed his way

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby RonK » Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:55 am

find_bruce wrote:
MichaelB wrote:People abusing TUE's :?:

Well I never !!!
The surprising thing is that Westra has put his hand up, without AFAIK, the wavering finger of suspicion pointed his way


Excerpt from the Cycling News article.

For his part, Westra says in the book that he doesn't believe he has done anything wrong and feels no remorse.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby MichaelB » Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:04 pm

RonK wrote:
find_bruce wrote:
MichaelB wrote:People abusing TUE's :?:

Well I never !!!
The surprising thing is that Westra has put his hand up, without AFAIK, the wavering finger of suspicion pointed his way


Excerpt from the Cycling News article.

For his part, Westra says in the book that he doesn't believe he has done anything wrong and feels no remorse.


Why would he ? He earned extra money & kudos by doing so, and loses none of the results he got. To boot, he earns more from a book deal and the resulting promotion it gets by him admitting. :? Same as all the others.

All his 'confession' does is highlights that the TUE system in the past was widely abused.

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby biker jk » Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:10 pm

A great summary on Salbutamol.

This point is telling.

Finally, there is one reported case of a middle distance runner with a salbutamol level of 8000 ng/ml in a sample taken after competition, who submitted to further testing under controlled laboratory conditions and returned levels of 2000-3000 ng/ml following a dose of 900 µg (Schweizer et al. 2004). Other than this individual, about whom nothing more is apparently known, the highest ever recorded salbutamol level in an athlete subject to an anti-doping control appears to be a value of 2000 ng/ml from Christopher Froome. It is noteworthy that there is no report in the literature known to this author where such a high level resulted from a dose of 800 µg or less.

https://www.dopeology.org/products/Salbutamol/

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby fat and old » Tue May 01, 2018 5:16 pm

TUE's went down a whole heap once sal was taken off the no no list, according to a Cycling Tips story.

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