Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby AUbicycles » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:58 pm

Caley Fretz of CyclingTps has an article: Commentary: How Russian propaganda is linked to Sky skepticism

Froomey is hot news right now... and rightly so even though he wants to keep it quite.

The closing paragraph annoys me but will provide some content but included the last two.

There’s no real conclusion to this. This is not a hot take saying you should forgive Wiggins because his TUEs were revealed by a hack with ulterior motives, or that your skepticism of Froome is unfounded. That’s nonsense; a deed done is a deed done and there has been plenty of subsequent investigation to suggest that Team Sky has long had an unhealthy attraction to gray areas.

But we do have a tendency to believe that propaganda — and let’s be clear, that’s what this was — only works on other people; that we alone are rational and able to see through the fog. This time, I’d say it worked quite well on us.


The title and point of the article is that hacking by a Russian sponsored entity is connected to leaked / revealed information related to shady practices. But are cycling fans 'suckers' because some information is available in what is suggested as a politically motivated stunt... or are cycling fans suckers because some riders and teams purposely make it opaque and this has been going on since cycle competition started?

I understand what the author is attempting to say but it doesn't work... the opposite active would have been that information was not publicised and there was less scrutiny of the Team Sky riders, but it doesn't make the practices any cleaner or transparent.

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby trailgumby » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:08 pm

I have been a Sky sceptic since their dominance in the year Wiggo won. There's been a slightly off smell about them for years, even before Fancy Bears were a thing. That was the year I lost interest in the TdF.

The truth will come out. It's that inner springiness thing that Tyler Hamilton talks about.

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:58 am

If due process had been followed, none of us would know about Froome's AAF, unless and until he is found to have committed an anti doping rule violation. That's when it would normally be made public.

As much as Froome's AAF stinks, it does concern me that the antidoping body and/or the cycling administrations in question have failed to maintain the required confidentiality. There is the possibility it was Froome/Sky that leaked but they have nothing to gain from it.

There are legitimate cases where an athlete's image can be unfairly tarnished when due process is not followed. I think in the last year of reporting I'm aware of (2015) 35% of AAFs were found to not result in an ADRV.

Executive Summary of 2015 ADRVs Report
1. A total of 229,412 samples were received and analyzed in 2015 by WADAaccredited
laboratories. 2,522 samples were reported as AAFs. Of these:
- 1,649 (65%) samples were confirmed as ADRVs (sanctions);
- 300 (12%) samples were dismissed because of a valid medical reason;
- 178 (7%) were categorized as “no case to answer” (i.e. case closed for a valid reason other
than medical reasons);
- 194 (8%) samples resulted in “no sanction” because the athlete was exonerated (including
but not limited to meat contamination cases);
- 201 (8%) samples were still pending.

https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/ ... ease_0.pdf

Drilling down, in cycling overall the ratio of AAFs not resulting in and ADRV was 144/244 = 59%.
9% of cases were still pending, but taking the average hit rate for those pending cases that still means more often than not in cycling an AAF does not result in an ADRV. And those cases not resulting in an AAF for a specified substance are rightly kept in-confidence (which is why we are not talking about them).

It will conclude. Beating an ADRV in Froome's case will be difficult but we must allow due process.

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby find_bruce » Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:01 am

trailgumby wrote:I have been a Sky sceptic since their dominance in the year Wiggo won. There's been a slightly off smell about them for years, even before Fancy Bears were a thing. That was the year I lost interest in the TdF.

The truth will come out. It's that inner springiness thing that Tyler Hamilton talks about.

That's why they call it confirmation bias. I am skeptical of anything Tyler Hamilton says about other people for 2 reasons (1) he has a history of being a credible liar & (2) his justification for doping was because everyone else was doing it - hence affected by his own confirmation bias.

Which coming back to AUbicycles' point, other people are cheating (the TUE system) is the spin that Fancy Bears are putting as the justification for Russia's systematic doping & cheating to avoid testing positive. You could make similar points about the way that wikileaks has morphed into the selective disclosure of material or the history of international support for brutal dictators.

I agree with Alex that the current system requires confidentiality such that selective disclosure is unfair. I am not convinced that the current secretive process is appropriate, especially the lengthy delays before there is any sort of disclosure but that may be my own bias towards open & transparent systems, referred to as the antiseptic of sunlight.

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby MichaelB » Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:54 am

The one article that I found interesting re the Froome saga was the one written by Philipa York. In that, she didn't discuss anything about how dodgy Froome or Brailsford are/is/may be/clean as, but instead looked at the language used by Brailsford & Sky in subtly shifting the blame to Froome, and that it has nothing to do with 'them' or the support staff/doctors.

It's worth a read.

Mind you, as is highlighted above by some other posters, if you've been a doping cheat in the past, why should you be able to comment and are your comments accurate.

Meh, I think as with many others, aside from the valid points raised by Alex (as always), there are too many things that just don't add up for the average punter, and it's easy to see the 'spin' from experts being applied.

I'm over it. Oh, and what a surprise, he gets dropped on the last climb in his 1st race back ...... (yeah, I know, reading things into something that may not be there, but could you imagine if he won the stage .... :roll: )

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:26 am

MichaelB wrote:The one article that I found interesting re the Froome saga was the one written by Philipa York. In that, she didn't discuss anything about how dodgy Froome or Brailsford are/is/may be/clean as, but instead looked at the language used by Brailsford & Sky in subtly shifting the blame to Froome, and that it has nothing to do with 'them' or the support staff/doctors.

In pro cycling as with politics, if you are trying to work out which way something will go, self-interest will generally rise to the top of the pile for predicting people's actions.

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby trailgumby » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:47 pm

find_bruce wrote:I am skeptical of anything Tyler Hamilton says about other people for 2 reasons (1) he has a history of being a credible liar & (2) his justification for doping was because everyone else was doing it - hence affected by his own confirmation bias.

In this case the quote I'm thinking of speaks only to his own discovery ("I've come to learn that truth is a living thing..."") and he no longer justifies his doping on the basis of "everyone else was doing it" - in fact, in some recent TED-X talks he uses his story as a warning to corporate audiences to beware of the little choices that seem expedient at the time but which accumulate and end with you completely compromising your own values.

His biography "The Secret Race" seems to focus strongly on those themes and I didn't see much in the way of self-justification in it. That said, he did have some help writing it so it's hard to say whether there's much window dressing or not. I'm inclined to think there's some (inevitably), but not a whole lot. It's mostly "Who stupid was I?"

He hasn't said anything directly that I'm aware of concerning Sky or Froomie-under-the-bus.

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The Guardian reports

Postby Thoglette » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:55 pm

Chris Froome struggles against the backdrop of failed drug test

Apparently Team Sky " want it to be resolved quickly just like any other team in this sport so we can move on and really chase our goals for the rest of the season" (Brett Lancaster quoted by Martha Kelner)

Lancaster also "admitted the fight to clear his [Froome's] name had taken an emotional toll on the 32-year-old."
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby MichaelB » Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:47 pm

Awwww, poor petal. I guess meeting with all the lawyers and spinners is taxing ...

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby fat and old » Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:27 pm

I was convinced that Froomay and Poels hung back on Angliru last year to gift Contador his swansong. I'm just as convinced that there was no way he'd risk winning Ruta, so long as Poels would. Wellens saw to that :lol:

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby biker jk » Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:26 pm

The article suggests that Team Sky were telling porkies about being sent testosterone patches "in error". Investigators may have found evidence that they were ordered from the National Cycling Centre in Manchester.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-5451759/Banned-testosterone-patches-ordered-Team-Sky-HQ.html

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby biker jk » Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:32 am

UK Parliamentary Committee on doping in sport report is out. Re Team Sky and PEDs.

110.From the evidence that has been received by the Committee regarding the use of triamcinolone at Team Sky during the period under investigation, and particularly in 2012, we believe that this powerful corticosteroid was being used to prepare Bradley Wiggins, and possibly other riders supporting him, for the Tour de France. The purpose of this was not to treat medical need, but to improve his power to weight ratio ahead of the race. The application for the TUE for the triamcinolone for Bradley Wiggins, ahead of the 2012 Tour de France, also meant that he benefited from the performance enhancing properties of this drug during the race. This does not constitute a violation of the WADA code, but it does cross the ethical line that David Brailsford says he himself drew for Team Sky. In this case, and contrary to the testimony of David Brailsford in front of the Committee, we believe that drugs were being used by Team Sky, within the WADA rules, to enhance the performance of riders, and not just to treat medical need.

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmcumeds/366/36606.htm#_idTextAnchor016

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby MichaelB » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:12 pm

Really ? That I don't believe ... :roll:

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Report suggests Team Sky riders took performance-enhancing drugs to win Tour de France

Postby Thoglette » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:42 pm

MichaelB wrote:Really ? That I don't believe ... :roll:

More in The Guardian Bradley Wiggins and Team Sky accused in damning drugs report

The Jiffy bag is mentioned
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:47 pm

biker jk wrote:UK Parliamentary Committee on doping in sport report is out. Re Team Sky and PEDs.

110.From the evidence that has been received by the Committee regarding the use of triamcinolone at Team Sky during the period under investigation, and particularly in 2012, we believe that this powerful corticosteroid was being used to prepare Bradley Wiggins, and possibly other riders supporting him, for the Tour de France. The purpose of this was not to treat medical need, but to improve his power to weight ratio ahead of the race. The application for the TUE for the triamcinolone for Bradley Wiggins, ahead of the 2012 Tour de France, also meant that he benefited from the performance enhancing properties of this drug during the race. This does not constitute a violation of the WADA code, but it does cross the ethical line that David Brailsford says he himself drew for Team Sky. In this case, and contrary to the testimony of David Brailsford in front of the Committee, we believe that drugs were being used by Team Sky, within the WADA rules, to enhance the performance of riders, and not just to treat medical need.

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmcumeds/366/36606.htm#_idTextAnchor016


So the UK parliament thinks team Sky and Team GB are guilty of hypocrisy. :roll:

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby RonK » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:00 pm

Hope they take his knighthood back.
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Meanwhile, Aunty says: Naughty!

Postby Thoglette » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:02 pm

Stop handing them the stick! - Dave Moulton
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby AUbicycles » Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:11 am

Wiggins has tweeted this.

It actually would have been good if he had of talked as the cycling fans are the biggest supporter of cycling and deserve it (even if the media is a challenge).

A minor comment is that a slight technicality in the wording "refute all of the allegations which are based on conjecture with no tangible evidence". It would mean that all other allegations are 'not refuted'... I know it is nitpicking, but sometimes it is all about the choice of words.

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby MichaelB » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:04 am

AUbicycles wrote: ....technicality in the wording "refute all of the allegations which are based on conjecture with no tangible evidence". ....


My bolding

What he means is "Thank fark that they didn't manage to PROVE that I took the stuff, but jeez they got close. Hope they don't find that laptop that went missing. Also owe Freeman a few crates of beer for staying stumm and being "ill". Think I got away with it ...."

:roll:

Yeah, like I'll believe him. Looks like a duck, walks and even quacks like one .....

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby RonK » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:19 am

It matters not - the parliamentary select committee are not bound by the burden of proof, or any drug-testing protocol. The findings directly contradict the truthfulness of the answers provided by the witnesses who appeared before them. And the report is made under parliamentary privilege.

Not only that, but they can (and did) recommend legislation such that certain activities in relation to the supply of drugs be made criminal.

Not to mention that the parliament controls the purse strings and can stop or reduce the massive cash funding to British Cycling of which Team Sky has clearly been a significant beneficiary.

And they can strip Wiggins and Brailsford of their knighthoods.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby biker jk » Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:04 pm

MichaelB wrote:
AUbicycles wrote: ....technicality in the wording "refute all of the allegations which are based on conjecture with no tangible evidence". ....


My bolding

What he means is "Thank fark that they didn't manage to PROVE that I took the stuff, but jeez they got close. Hope they don't find that laptop that went missing. Also owe Freeman a few crates of beer for staying stumm and being "ill". Think I got away with it ...."

:roll:

Yeah, like I'll believe him. Looks like a duck, walks and even quacks like one .....


Of course Sir Bradley could release his medical records to clear up this misunderstanding.

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby fat and old » Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:05 pm

And Floyd has his say!

"For a guy like Wiggins, who was too heavy and not a climber, corticoids would be just as beneficial as steroids, EPO and blood doping, because if he didn't use it then he wouldn't have been able to get that skinny, and all the EPO in the world wouldn't have helped him get over the mountains," Landis said. "People shouldn't downplay what has gone on. He was using steroids. They kicked me out and they took my title for that. They better !! BAN ME NOW FOR SWEARING !! take his


Yeah, bitter dude :lol:

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby BJL » Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:43 pm

What the hell. I say allow drugs in cycling and retrospectively give everyone back their titles, and dignity. I for one would love to see what the human body is capable of, drug assisted or not, and am quite happy to let others be the guinea pigs. As long as there are no complaints about early deaths, weird diseases or any other abnormal health issues, what's the problem? And in time, we may develop drugs without the side effects which would greatly help other people recover from injury or disease. Without athletes, many more innocent animals will die unnecessarily in labs, and for what? Drugs that work on rats but not humans? Golf clap.

So I say, let the athletes take one for the team doing their bit for medical science, giving something back to society and take all the drugs they want.

:P

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:04 pm

BJL wrote:What the hell. I say allow drugs in cycling and retrospectively give everyone back their titles, and dignity. I for one would love to see what the human body is capable of, drug assisted or not, and am quite happy to let others be the guinea pigs. As long as there are no complaints about early deaths, weird diseases or any other abnormal health issues, what's the problem? And in time, we may develop drugs without the side effects which would greatly help other people recover from injury or disease. Without athletes, many more innocent animals will die unnecessarily in labs, and for what? Drugs that work on rats but not humans? Golf clap.

So I say, let the athletes take one for the team doing their bit for medical science, giving something back to society and take all the drugs they want.

:P

So you think it's OK to dope up juniors too?
That's what they'll need to do in order to make a living as a pro cyclist.

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby AUbicycles » Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:12 pm

BJL wrote:give everyone back their titles, and dignity.


How can they get back something that they don't have in the first place?


BJL wrote:So I say, let the athletes take one for the team doing their bit for medical science, giving something back to society and take all the drugs they want.


Cynicism aside, what about the riders who want to ride clean?

On the one hand there are performance benefits from a variety of things; nutrition, recovery, training, tactics, equipment and maybe some luck. A 'free for all' for is both physically dangerous and very much takes away the dignity of the riders. Like the state sponsored doping programs of East Germany, Russia and China, the foundations begin with children who are not aware of the consequences (and in those cases, many were unaware that they were consuming steroids). The fall out now are ex-athletes who suffer the physical consequences such as becoming sterile and other health problems as well as shame.

Even though creating a "Tour de Dope' series appears to be a way to create clarity, where are the limits... and how far will athletes push those limits?

The solution for riders, teams and organisers right now can be transparency.... instead of 'not talking' - riders need to formerly declare before competing. If riders are afraid that this makes them appear weak against competitor.... screw that. If the rider is sick and crippled so needs a medication to ride that day, why shouldn't it be public?

And stop asking Floyd Landis what he thinks.... he is still angry that Armstrong managed to manipulate the system and got to talk to Oprah.

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