Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby drubie » Thu May 26, 2011 10:27 am

Possible second positive from the 2002 Dauphine:

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I get the distinct impression the UCI are quite keen to cut him loose. Still not sure myself. I wonder what Jan Ullrich thinks of all this.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Chuck » Thu May 26, 2011 4:12 pm

drubie wrote:I wonder what Jan Ullrich thinks of all this.


I think Jan would only be surprised if he found out Lance beat him clean :shock:. Jan was no angel either :(
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby AUbicycles » Thu May 26, 2011 10:40 pm

Ullrich wants to stay the heck away from all this. He tried the media spotlight after his scandel and it wasn't kind to him.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby JV911 » Fri May 27, 2011 7:40 am

Word is Bertie's hearing has been postponed until after le tour
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby MichaelB » Fri May 27, 2011 9:43 am

JV911 wrote:Word is Bertie's hearing has been postponed until after le tour



Yeah, his defence needs more time to find that steak...

How bloody ridiculous. Was looking fwd to a bertie less Le Tour, but now it looks like he'll be there :evil:

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby jules21 » Fri May 27, 2011 10:31 am

JV911 wrote:Word is Bertie's hearing has been postponed until after le tour

this is turning into the type of farce we have come to expect. i doubt he can win the Tour after such a gruelling Giro. if he can, i reckon he should be allowed to keep the titles :)
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby brentono » Fri May 27, 2011 12:16 pm

Lance Armstrong has hired two prominent attorneys who won a legal case
involving the lead investigator in a current federal probe of Armstrong.
San Francisco-based John Keker and Elliot Peters said on Thursday
they were now representing Armstrong.


Armstrong needs to get Alberto Contador’s legal team on side. :lol:
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby JV911 » Fri May 27, 2011 2:48 pm

jules21 wrote:i doubt he can win the Tour after such a gruelling Giro. if he can, i reckon he should be allowed to keep the titles :)


if he does i reckon he'll have a crack at la vuelta
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Chuck » Fri May 27, 2011 3:41 pm

roller wrote:New Ashenden Interview: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ashende ... llegations


Again he reiterates that Armstrong took EPO at the 99 Tour. Surely Lance must feel defamed by this :? Why no legal action ??

Perhaps it's best not to bring into focus the 99 Tour samples and the opinion of a respected professional in the anti-doping field :idea:
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby AUbicycles » Fri May 27, 2011 7:20 pm

Too late for a super injunction?
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Mulger bill » Sat May 28, 2011 12:27 am

JV911 wrote:Word is Bertie's hearing has been postponed until after le tour


Ummm, what???!!!

Let's say he nails yellow at le Tour, the hearing result is bad (for Spanish butchers) 2010 result altered, 2011 under a huge cloud of prime beef residue...
How's that gonna look for the UCI and the sport?

Sounds like the UCI has decided he's clean already.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby roller » Sat May 28, 2011 3:07 am

good to see a major cycling brand leading the way by tackling the big issues
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby brentono » Sat May 28, 2011 11:02 am

Mulger bill wrote:Sounds like the UCI has decided he's clean already.

+1 :)
And as pointed out before...
Still have difficulty seeing either WADA or UCI (severely or jointly)
coming up with anything new to sway the CAS,
to convince the CAS to uphold their appeal.


... and I think the reality (of success) of the appeal, is coming to light. :D
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Chuck » Sun May 29, 2011 1:31 pm

jules21 wrote:i doubt he can win the Tour after such a gruelling Giro. if he can, i reckon he should be allowed to keep the titles :)


I don't know if that's just an off the cuff remark, but not sure how you can reconcile that with this....

Chuck wrote:
It's not the kind of evidence you'd hang a man on (the levels found).

"jules21 wrote:"
i would. the levels are irrelevant - they should be zero. if he can't explain how they entered his body by inadvertent means, then by definition it must be concluded they were deliberately placed there. in that case, it's reasonable to conclude he took a higher concentration than that detected, but managed to partially mask it. or that it was a trace element from his blood bag. either way it's a hanging offence.


Yours was a sustained and reasonable argument that he should be banned, one I came to agree with. :? :?

Having watched last nights stage and seen how (relatively) fresh he still looks I wouldn't discount him as a podium threat at the Tour.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Chuck » Sun May 29, 2011 1:45 pm

The first part of this article is going over familiar ground, but the rest makes interesting reading....

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/wada-he ... estigation

I think that Howman is realistic about what is currently being done in the fight against doping and what else could be done.

The point about Marion Jones is also very relevant to the current ongoing investigation. The line that LA is using about having over 500 tests and never failing one is redundant when you consider how long she doped for and never tested positive.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby jules21 » Sun May 29, 2011 8:44 pm

Chuck wrote:I don't know if that's just an off the cuff remark, but not sure how you can reconcile that with this.....

off the cuff. but given that so many Tour contenders have been found to be dopers, there's a little part of me that still admires the best rider amongst dopers, on a level (doped) playing field. i know that's wrong :oops:
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby brentono » Mon May 30, 2011 11:56 am

jules21 wrote:... there's a little part of me that still admires the best rider amongst dopers,
on a level (doped) playing field. i know that's wrong :oops:


Now we're talking... :lol:
All for "level playing field"... allow everything. :roll:
All the info about it here. :wink:
http://sportsanddrugs.procon.org/

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Mon May 30, 2011 1:16 pm

Systemic dopers and those that aid them are scum and need to be removed from our sport forever.

I have no respect for those that do irrespective of what results they have attained.

I also think having people who were dopers still involved in influencing the sport and the newer riders coming through via directing, managing, coaching, medical assistance etc is completely wrong.

Wrong role models, poor choices, poor advice.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby JV911 » Mon May 30, 2011 1:28 pm

jules21 wrote:on a level (doped) playing field. i know that's wrong :oops:


how about we have two races i.e. one for the dopers and one for the clean riders?

i know that's wrong on many levels :oops:
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Mon May 30, 2011 1:33 pm

JV911 wrote:
jules21 wrote:on a level (doped) playing field. i know that's wrong :oops:


how about we have two races i.e. one for the dopers and one for the clean riders?

i know that's wrong on many levels :oops:

They tried that in bodybuilding.

It remains one of the highest number of doping violations of all sports in Australia behind Rugby (mostly league) and weightlifting. Cycling is 4th on the list.

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby jules21 » Mon May 30, 2011 1:50 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote: Systemic dopers and those that aid them are scum and need to be removed from our sport forever.

i think that's unfair. most dopers claim not to have progressed in the sport with an ambition to dope, but discovered when reaching the pros that it was more widespread than they anticipated and/or came under strong pressure from team mgt. as a professional, i often say to colleagues that if i don't like the look of where i work or my job, i will take my skills elsewhere. that option is very much more restricted for pro athletes. it's easy for me to sympathise with them - it's a much bigger dilemma than simply demonising those who dope. in my view, blaming the riders is misdirecting your anger.

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:I also think having people who were dopers still involved in influencing the sport and the newer riders coming through via directing, managing, coaching, medical assistance etc is completely wrong.

Wrong role models, poor choices, poor advice.

that i agree with. how bjarne riis and others can be directeurs sportif is beyond my comprehension. i believe the UCI are finally looking at putting a stop to that.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Mon May 30, 2011 2:29 pm

jules21 wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote: Systemic dopers and those that aid them are scum and need to be removed from our sport forever.

i think that's unfair. most dopers claim not to have progressed in the sport with an ambition to dope, but discovered when reaching the pros that it was more widespread than they anticipated and/or came under strong pressure from team mgt. as a professional, i often say to colleagues that if i don't like the look of where i work or my job, i will take my skills elsewhere. that option is very much more restricted for pro athletes. it's easy for me to sympathise with them - it's a much bigger dilemma than simply demonising those who dope. in my view, blaming the riders is misdirecting your anger.

Note the careful choice of my words. I don't care, you have a choice to be a cheater in life or not.

If you were offered a bribe to get ahead in your profession - would you take it, or would you report the unethical behaviour? If a rider comes under pressure to dope in order to get/keep a contract, they need to report it to the doping authorities - there are confidential help lines specifically for athletes to deal with just this sort of thing.

Maybe I could get ahead quicker as a coach if I helped my athletes dope and became famous and highly paid for producing lots of champions?

jules21 wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:I also think having people who were dopers still involved in influencing the sport and the newer riders coming through via directing, managing, coaching, medical assistance etc is completely wrong.

Wrong role models, poor choices, poor advice.

that i agree with. how bjarne riis and others can be directeurs sportif is beyond my comprehension. i believe the UCI are finally looking at putting a stop to that.

I don't believe they are. I think they are full of rhetoric on the issue.
Tyler Hamilton is a cycling coach nowadays FFS.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby jules21 » Mon May 30, 2011 2:37 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:If you were offered a bribe to get ahead in your profession - would you take it, or would you report the unethical behaviour? If a rider comes under pressure to dope in order to get/keep a contract, they need to report it to the doping authorities - there are confidential help lines specifically for athletes to deal with just this sort of thing.

off topic a bit, but i know females who have utilised well formed HR policies that claimed to be in place to stamp out sexual discrimination in the workplace. as often as not, they turn out to be lip service and the complainant is left hung out to dry. the answer to your question above would depend on how confident i was about the outcomes (for me) of reporting it. if i was a pro cyclist, knowing what has happened to whistle blowers in the past, i couldn't say that a 'confidential help line' would be a big factor in deciding which way to go. remember, you're not dealing with sport, but people's livelihoods.

i did miss the 'systemic' part and i have less sympathy for the danilo di lucas of the world - it's hard to describe them as victims in perpetuity.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Mon May 30, 2011 4:38 pm

jules21 wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:If you were offered a bribe to get ahead in your profession - would you take it, or would you report the unethical behaviour? If a rider comes under pressure to dope in order to get/keep a contract, they need to report it to the doping authorities - there are confidential help lines specifically for athletes to deal with just this sort of thing.

off topic a bit, but i know females who have utilised well formed HR policies that claimed to be in place to stamp out sexual discrimination in the workplace. as often as not, they turn out to be lip service and the complainant is left hung out to dry. the answer to your question above would depend on how confident i was about the outcomes (for me) of reporting it. if i was a pro cyclist, knowing what has happened to whistle blowers in the past, i couldn't say that a 'confidential help line' would be a big factor in deciding which way to go. remember, you're not dealing with sport, but people's livelihoods.

i did miss the 'systemic' part and i have less sympathy for the danilo di lucas of the world - it's hard to describe them as victims in perpetuity.

Problem with HR departments is their first loyalty is to the organisation's shareholders, not the employees. For such policies to be effective, the place to report such things needs to be external to the company, and be with people without a conflict of interest.

The help line here is at ASADA, not the cycling authorities:
http://www.asada.gov.au/rules_and_viola ... gence.html

Contact them and you'll get a reference number you can keep which is linked to the record of the conversation. You don't have to reveal your name but later on you have a record to prove you did the right thing if in a tight space. Same if you are unsure about a substance and want good advice - you'll get a record to prove you made the effort to check if ever that is needed.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Mon May 30, 2011 4:42 pm

I have myself used the ASADA helpline to get good information about prescribed medications and whether or not they may be a problem and have instructed some clients to do same when they are unsure.

Many doctors have alerts on their prescription systems for patients who are known athletes but I wouldn't rely on that. If in doubt, ask the experts. We are all paying for the service, may as well use it.
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