Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby wombatK » Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:52 pm

jules21 wrote:i know people will disagree with me, but the winner now is arguably the person with the best genetic attributes. is that really any better? doping is bad as it's dangerous to riders' health, but i'm unconvinced for reasons beyond that.

There seems to be credible evidence that the winners aren't necessarily those with the best genes - some of the counter evidence is overviewed in the
Sports Illustrated Why MLB hitters can't hit Jennie Finch and science behind reaction time. Although the 10,000 hours thesis doesn't explain it all, it holds a fair part of the truth. That's what we admire in sports champions (and even champion
violinist, chess players and medical researchers) etc.,. - that they've put in the hard yards.

PED users are just bludging off the 10,000 hours some backroom biochemical lab rat put into concocting the latest undetectable PED. Worse still, we'd
all be better off if the lab rat had put his learning into a more admirable use like curing cancer or other diseases.

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by BNA » Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:54 pm

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby toolonglegs » Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:54 pm

PS... those pesky mountain bike riders making a mockery of this years tour!
http://vimeo.com/70700502#
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby RonK » Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:59 pm

Joeblake wrote:The problem stems from the expectations the "sports lovers" of this (and other) countries places on its stars.

You're making excuses. There is no way you can blame pressures from sports fans.

In the 90's hardly any Australians knew who O'Grady and the other Aussies in the peleton were. Or knew anything about professional bike racing. Of the few of us who did, our expectations were no more than that a we hoped few might actually be selected for the TdF, and maybe even some of them would actually finish.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Joeblake » Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:01 pm

Could the Mythbusters come to the white phone please?

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Joeblake » Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:03 pm

RonK wrote:
Joeblake wrote:The problem stems from the expectations the "sports lovers" of this (and other) countries places on its stars.

You're making excuses. There is no way you can blame pressures from sports fans.


Make excuses? Why, and for whom?

Joe
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby RonK » Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:27 pm

Joeblake wrote:
RonK wrote:
Joeblake wrote:The problem stems from the expectations the "sports lovers" of this (and other) countries places on its stars.

You're making excuses. There is no way you can blame pressures from sports fans.


Make excuses? Why, and for whom?

Joe

The conversation is pretty obviously about O'Grady. As for why, that is up to you to explain.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Joeblake » Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:34 pm

I never mentioned "excuse", that was YOUR word. Therefore I have nothing to explain.

Excusing and explaining mean two different things. In this article

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national ... ges/58164/

I referred to it says he [Armstrong] offered bribes to other riders so he could win $1,000,000. That would explain his actions but it would not excuse them.

Joe
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby RonK » Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:53 pm

Joeblake wrote:I never mentioned "excuse", that was YOUR word. Therefore I have nothing to explain.

Excusing and explaining mean two different things. In this article

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national ... ges/58164/

I referred to it says he [Armstrong] offered bribes to other riders so he could win $1,000,000. That would explain his actions but it would not excuse them.

Joe

The discussion is about O'Grady, not Arnstrong.

First you attempt to ameliorate O'Grady's actions by comparing them to Armstrong.

Then you claim the problem (presumably O'Grady's motivation) is the expectations of "sports lovers". Not true.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Joeblake » Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:02 pm

Joeblake wrote:I never mentioned "excuse", that was YOUR word. Therefore I have nothing to explain.


Res ipsa loquitur

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby sogood » Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:36 pm

O'Grady was awarded OAM. Will they take it back, along with "Best of the Best" from AIS? Terrible situation! He obviously suffered the same psychology as LA. With so much at stake, they both chose to hide as much as they could, for as long as they could.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby }SkOrPn--7 » Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:29 pm

O'Grady is a disgrace and should be stripped of all awards...... A crime unpunished goes unnoticed.

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby cyclotaur » Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:37 pm

sogood wrote:O'Grady was awarded OAM. Will they take it back, along with "Best of the Best" from AIS? Terrible situation! He obviously suffered the same psychology as LA. With so much at stake, they both chose to hide as much as they could, for as long as they could.

It was easier for SOG in practical terms - he had much less to hide than LA. Psychologically though, his relatively minor indiscretion probably weighed on him harder and certainly for longer than LA's massive fraud because he he didn't rationalise away his behaviour or try to spin others into his web. They have different personalities, I think.

But yes, a terrible situation, mostly for O'Grady. :|
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby sogood » Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:41 pm

At the end of the day, it's all money, money, money, fame, fame, fame...
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby siennatrack » Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:49 pm

RonK wrote:
Joeblake wrote:I never mentioned "excuse", that was YOUR word. Therefore I have nothing to explain.

Excusing and explaining mean two different things. In this article

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national ... ges/58164/

I referred to it says he [Armstrong] offered bribes to other riders so he could win $1,000,000. That would explain his actions but it would not excuse them.

Joe

The discussion is about O'Grady, not Arnstrong.

First you attempt to ameliorate O'Grady's actions by comparing them to Armstrong.

Then you claim the problem (presumably O'Grady's motivation) is the expectations of "sports lovers". Not true.


i guess everyone with an opinion on why these guys chose to do what they did are in a perfect job where they always agree with the boss and are never asked or expected to do anything that challenges their beliefs and if they were would throw the job not worry when or where the next pay cheque was coming from and simply give up everything you have worked and struggled for.i dont condone what's been done but i wasn't in their predicament ,neither i imagine, were you so off the high horse guys its getting old.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby toolonglegs » Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:56 pm

cyclotaur wrote:It was easier for SOG in practical terms - he had much less to hide than LA. Psychologically though, his relatively minor indiscretion probably weighed on him harder and certainly for longer than LA's massive fraud because he he didn't rationalise away his behaviour or try to spin others into his web. They have different personalities, I think.

But yes, a terrible situation, mostly for O'Grady. :|


He had everything to hide... if he had been caught he would have had a two year suspension... which would have cancelled out many of the things that came his way later.
You call it a minor discretion... you are already believing his lies. It is an obvious lie that he only used it in the lead up to the 1998 TDF ... EPO leaves your system fairly quickly... yet two weeks after the tour started he has a suspect result by 2004 standards.
he didn't rationalise away his behaviour or try to spin others into his web
... thats not how I read the comments he made about other dopers being caught before him.

Then here he is... finishes this years TDF, retires just in time before the sh&T hits the fan... but guess what, he is probably pretty well off, nothing will get taken back... he cheated and prospered.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby ldrcycles » Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:57 pm

I know exactly what i'd tell my boss if he wanted me to do something that was illegal and could kill me.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby RonK » Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:59 pm

siennatrack wrote:
RonK wrote:
Joeblake wrote:I never mentioned "excuse", that was YOUR word. Therefore I have nothing to explain.

Excusing and explaining mean two different things. In this article

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national ... ges/58164/

I referred to it says he [Armstrong] offered bribes to other riders so he could win $1,000,000. That would explain his actions but it would not excuse them.

Joe

The discussion is about O'Grady, not Arnstrong.

First you attempt to ameliorate O'Grady's actions by comparing them to Armstrong.

Then you claim the problem (presumably O'Grady's motivation) is the expectations of "sports lovers". Not true.


i guess everyone with an opinion on why these guys chose to do what they did are in a perfect job where they always agree with the boss and are never asked or expected to do anything that challenges their beliefs and if they were would throw the job not worry when or where the next pay cheque was coming from and simply give up everything you have worked and struggled for.i dont condone what's been done but i wasn't in their predicament ,neither i imagine, were you so off the high horse guys its getting old.

Get off your own horse. I've made no criticism of O'Grady.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby g-boaf » Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:02 pm

ldrcycles wrote:I know exactly what i'd tell my boss if he wanted me to do something that was illegal and could kill me.


Exactly it could kill you.

When it gets to that point - time to get the police involved.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby toolonglegs » Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:12 pm

ldrcycles wrote:I know exactly what i'd tell my boss if he wanted me to do something that was illegal and could kill me.


You obviously haven't read Jalabert's statement today!
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby ldrcycles » Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:30 pm

toolonglegs wrote:
ldrcycles wrote:I know exactly what i'd tell my boss if he wanted me to do something that was illegal and could kill me.


You obviously haven't read Jalabert's statement today!


Just googled it. Seriously? "They injected me with something but I don't know what it was and I didn't ask" (or words to that effect). If you want to be that slack then you need to cop the consequences.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby thecaptn » Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:31 pm

}SkOrPn--7 wrote:O'Grady is a disgrace and should be stripped of all awards...... A crime unpunished goes unnoticed.

Ricky

I think O'Grady is brave to come clean and makes him even more of a champion in my eyes.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby AndrewBurns » Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:34 pm

ldrcycles wrote:I know exactly what i'd tell my boss if he wanted me to do something that was illegal and could kill me.


Not if that thing he wanted you to do was extremely prevalent amongst your colleagues, not very likely to kill you and would help you fulfil your life's ambition.

Unfortunately it's not so simple a question for elite athletes, a lot of them would take something they knew would kill them eventually if it would also guarantee that they'd win.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby toolonglegs » Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:41 pm

AndrewBurns wrote:
ldrcycles wrote:I know exactly what i'd tell my boss if he wanted me to do something that was illegal and could kill me.


Not if that thing he wanted you to do was extremely prevalent amongst your colleagues, not very likely to kill you and would help you fulfil your life's ambition.

Unfortunately it's not so simple a question for elite athletes, a lot of them would take something they knew would kill them eventually if it would also guarantee that they'd win.


Plenty of people take use substances now that they know will probably kill them ( unlike EPO ) ... and they do it for no reason at all :roll: .

thecaptn wrote:
}SkOrPn--7 wrote:O'Grady is a disgrace and should be stripped of all awards...... A crime unpunished goes unnoticed.

Ricky

I think O'Grady is brave to come clean and makes him even more of a champion in my eyes.


6 months ago I might have thought the same... the day before your name is about to be released anyway to the public... not that brave any more to me... I find it pretty cowardly.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby cyclotaur » Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:45 pm

toolonglegs wrote:
cyclotaur wrote:It was easier for SOG in practical terms - he had much less to hide than LA. Psychologically though, his relatively minor indiscretion probably weighed on him harder and certainly for longer than LA's massive fraud because he he didn't rationalise away his behaviour or try to spin others into his web. They have different personalities, I think.

But yes, a terrible situation, mostly for O'Grady. :|


He had everything to hide... if he had been caught he would have had a two year suspension... which would have cancelled out many of the things that came his way later.

Hypothetical speculation - we have no idea how things might have panned out if he been caught and suspended at the time.
toolonglegs wrote:You call it a minor discretion... you are already believing his lies. It is an obvious lie that he only used it in the lead up to the 1998 TDF ... EPO leaves your system fairly quickly... yet two weeks after the tour started he has a suspect result by 2004 standards.

Surely the fact it was only 'suspect' and not 'positive' somewhat corroborates, rather than invalidates, his version. If he'd continued to use EPO into the tour he'd have tested positive. You say he's lying, but can't prove it. I'm taking him at his word for now, unless or until there is evidence to the contrary.
cyclotaur wrote:he didn't rationalise away his behaviour or try to spin others into his web
toolonglegs wrote:... thats not how I read the comments he made about other dopers being caught before him.

Difference of opinion then.
toolonglegs wrote:Then here he is... finishes this years TDF, retires just in time before the sh&T hits the fan... but guess what, he is probably pretty well off, nothing will get taken back... he cheated and prospered.

It makes no difference when he retired. The sh&t hits the fan eventually anyway - just ask Matt White and Stephen Hodge. And if he'd been caught and suspended at the time he might well have come back and done most of the same things anyway. There are plenty of current pro-tour riders doing just that, having served suspensions for offences far more recent than O'Grady's, and therefore arguably far more culpable than he was in 1998.

Anyway one certainty is that everyone has their own opinion and they're entitled to it, unless or until facts prove otherwise. :|
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby RonK » Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:51 pm

thecaptn wrote:
}SkOrPn--7 wrote:O'Grady is a disgrace and should be stripped of all awards...... A crime unpunished goes unnoticed.

Ricky

I think O'Grady is brave to come clean and makes him even more of a champion in my eyes.

Unfortunately, he didn't come clean - he was outed, and so forced to admit it.
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