Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Joeblake » Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:36 pm

siennatrack wrote:Just using the words drugs, doper,injecting all go hand in hand with another word called addiction and from past knowledge you dont just stop an addiction
over night so if this is the case ... so which one is it are they drug addicts or good guys that took drugs?


Who says it IS the case? That's just uninformed speculation. Why not wait for some facts to emerge?

Somebody who takes drugs is not necessarily an addict, any more than somebody who has a beer or two is an alcoholic.

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by BNA » Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:55 pm

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby siennatrack » Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:55 pm

I am simply asking is this the case as the words being used suggest much more .Its not like riders that were using banned substances did so in the open for all to see, the similarities are there hence why i ask the question.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Joeblake » Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:08 pm

siennatrack wrote: the words being used suggest much more


Yes, exactly, that's the unfounded speculation, there's no evidence supplied. A person takes drugs once, doesn't come clean straight away, and then the word is that he lied about taking drugs once, therefore he's taken drugs more than once. Tried and sentenced in absentia in the court of public opinion presumably by people who have never told a lie in their life. As has already been said in this thread "He who is without sin ..." etc etc.

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:17 pm

siennatrack wrote:Just using the words drugs, doper,injecting all go hand in hand with another word called addiction and from past knowledge you dont just stop an addiction
over night so if this is the case how on earth can we even consider giving any rider with past convictions a position of authority in any professional or amateur teams is beyond me ,i'm sure in the public sector you cant get a job in schools or many other government jobs with past drug convictions so which one is it are they drug addicts or good guys that took drugs?


Hmmm where do I start?

You may mash all those terms together but not all drugs are addictive. Most are not. AFAIK EPO isn't.

You may be sure about government jobs policy but firstly what is that relevant to. Secondly there will be few jobs in government that you would be excluded from just from being a user. Criminal may require a declaration by you but even that is heavily negated by laws that make it illegal for the prospective employer to even ask unless there is demonstrable relevance. Otherwise the employer asking, government or otherwise, is likely to wind up with a conviction themselves.

I may agree with your wish to keep cheats out but I also need a valid argument.

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby AUbicycles » Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:08 am

A friend of mine in Hamburg who competes as an Amature in Triathlons has suspected that even at this level it isn't a level playing field and wrote to the NADA and got a response back - while it is prohibitive to start broader controls in amature events, random testing would help get the message into the the sport from this angle.

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby schroeds » Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:59 pm

There's one guy who seems to have been entirely absent in the debate that's raged ever since Stuey was outed...and that's the man himself.

Must be hard for the guy to see his career prospects fall apart after working so hard for so long.

I'm not saying we need to feel too sorry for somebody who cheated, could have fessed but didn't and got caught, but surely we can show some empathy - there's always a sad human cost to these stories.

Has anybody heard anything about him or from him? Where is he? How's he taking all this? What will be his next move?
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby RonK » Mon Aug 05, 2013 1:15 pm

schroeds wrote:Has anybody heard anything about him or from him? Where is he? How's he taking all this? What will be his next move?


According to the ABC News on the day he announced his retirement, he will be working on the TDU.

I was surprised by this, as I assumed he would take a role with OGE.

Then the next day he was outed and it became obvious why he wasn't staying.

BTW - no need to feel too sorry for him. I'm sure he has no real need to work.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby AUbicycles » Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:39 am

As cycling fans I think humility is called for - kind of the opposite of what Lance is doing (though can't blame him for picking up the phone when CyclingNews calls as he probably isn't getting as many calls as he is used to). Lets get them on club duties for their local cycling club - broom in hand sweeping the criterium circuit once a week for a year and helping out the juniors.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Cheesewheel » Sun Aug 25, 2013 6:49 pm

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:26 am

Cheesewheel wrote:bad venn diagram


Neil Armstrong was a humble modest man, with a fabulous scientific mind, a clear pilot talent, did not seek fame nor fortune from his moon landing status, and most certainly did not live a lie.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby clackers » Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:47 am

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
Cheesewheel wrote:bad venn diagram


Neil Armstrong was a humble modest man, with a fabulous scientific mind, a clear pilot talent, did not seek fame nor fortune from his moon landing status, and most certainly did not live a lie.


It's a joke, Alex ...a reference to faked moon landings.

His other intersection is with a jazz song that Louis Armstrong doesn't actually appear to have covered either.

PS You must watch the docco 'In the Shadow of the Moon' for some (Neil) Armstrong awesomeness.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:54 pm

clackers wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
Cheesewheel wrote:bad venn diagram


Neil Armstrong was a humble modest man, with a fabulous scientific mind, a clear pilot talent, did not seek fame nor fortune from his moon landing status, and most certainly did not live a lie.


It's a joke, Alex ...a reference to faked moon landings.

His other intersection is with a jazz song that Louis Armstrong doesn't actually appear to have covered either.

PS You must watch the docco 'In the Shadow of the Moon' for some (Neil) Armstrong awesomeness.

I realise it was an attempt at humour. It just wasn't funny. It may have been more entertaining had the statements been true, or if true funny alternatives were thought of.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Joeblake » Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:02 pm

I also thought it fell a bit flat. Perhaps a couple of substitutions - instead of "Living a Lie" perhaps "Great faith in one's abilities" and for "Paper Moon" perhaps "What a Beautiful World".

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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby clackers » Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:14 pm

Good to see you workshopping the premise, Joe! :-)

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Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby singlespeedscott » Mon Aug 26, 2013 3:35 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
Cheesewheel wrote:bad venn diagram


Neil Armstrong was a humble modest man, with a fabulous scientific mind, a clear pilot talent, did not seek fame nor fortune from his moon landing status, and most certainly did not live a lie.

+1

A very modest man from all accounts. Except when some clowns called him a liar.

His modesty was probably why Buzz Aldrin was the face of the Luna landings.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby clackers » Mon Aug 26, 2013 3:50 pm

singlespeedscott wrote:
His modesty was probably why Buzz Aldrin was the face of the Luna landings.


Well, there is a book that says modesty was why NASA decided to make him rather than Aldrin 'the guy'.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Ross » Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:13 pm

So do you (fellow forumers) reckon that cyclists are using peptides like footballers allegedly are? Are they tested for them?
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby briztoon » Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:45 pm

Where do you think "our" footballers got it from.

My view, Australian football is well behind in the use of sporting drugs, in that sports such as athletics and cycling will be at the forefront of new drugs and types of doping and that Australian football codes will be one of the last sporting markets these drugs are peddled to.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby twizzle » Sun Sep 01, 2013 8:02 pm

Ross wrote:So do you (fellow forumers) reckon that cyclists are using peptides like footballers allegedly are? Are they tested for them?


Hell yes, and (AFAIK) there aren't any tests for peptides.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby trailgumby » Sun Sep 01, 2013 8:08 pm

briztoon wrote:Where do you think "our" footballers got it from.

My view, Australian football is well behind in the use of sporting drugs, in that sports such as athletics and cycling will be at the forefront of new drugs and types of doping and that Australian football codes will be one of the last sporting markets these drugs are peddled to.

Why? Is that because footballers are just generally slow on the uptake?
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby trailgumby » Sun Sep 01, 2013 8:13 pm

Ross wrote:So do you (fellow forumers) reckon that cyclists are using peptides like footballers allegedly are? Are they tested for them?


I reckon they've moved past EPO. The interesting thing will be to see in a few years - once the truth leaks out again - what the current crop of leading cyclists have been up to.

UK Postal, I'm looking at you.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby briztoon » Sun Sep 01, 2013 8:42 pm

trailgumby wrote:
briztoon wrote:Where do you think "our" footballers got it from.

My view, Australian football is well behind in the use of sporting drugs, in that sports such as athletics and cycling will be at the forefront of new drugs and types of doping and that Australian football codes will be one of the last sporting markets these drugs are peddled to.

Why? Is that because footballers are just generally slow on the uptake?


No. Mainly because there is more money in many other sports that have more of a global presence, And I believe the US and Europe is where more of the research and development of such drugs occur, so naturally that is where these drugs will first find there way in to sports. EPO is a good example of this. I tried finding it, but there is a good article of how EPO found it's way in to sports and cycling.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby jasimon » Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:06 am

Interesting article in The New Yorker about PEDs. Asks why we accept some forms of performance enhancement and not others. Has a discussion of Lance at the end as well:
http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/a ... ntPage=all

Some of the observations I found interesting:
Baseball allows ligament replacement surgery (that can make pitchers better than new) but not drugs (well, at least notionally).
We accept adding iodine to the diet as a way to "boost" IQ (i.e. prevent goitre)
We accept genetic variation that makes some people naturally better but "levelling the playing field" by giving everyone the same "genetic" advantages is taboo.

At any rate, I found it pretty interesting. Underlying question: What is it we value about sporting competition? Finding the best genetics? Finding the best work ethic? And how do these interact with the forms of performance enhancement that are considered legitimate and the forms of performance enhancement that are illegitimate?
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby wombatK » Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:19 am

jasimon wrote:Interesting article in The New Yorker about PEDs. Asks why we accept some forms of performance enhancement and not others. Has a discussion of Lance at the end as well:
http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/a ... ntPage=all

.... Underlying question: What is it we value about sporting competition? Finding the best genetics? Finding the best work ethic? And how do these interact with the forms of performance enhancement that are considered legitimate and the forms of performance enhancement that are illegitimate?

Don't know about the baseball ligament surgery if it is allowed in cases where there has been no injury. Baseball and a many professional sports where athletes are commanding multi-million dollar contracts extending into their late thirties are hardly likely to be PED free. So enhancement surgery might be in their arsenal of cheating tools too.

But it's too long a bow to suggest that correcting dietary deficiencies with iodine supplementation is "performance enhancing". It's no moreso than suggesting eating is performance enhancing.

Gladwell makes a serious error when suggesting that laser correction surgery is performance enhancing for a baseball player. Epstein points out the key genetic advantage most baseball batters have is extremely high visual accuity. That has to do with the cells on their retina and optic nerve, and no amount of laser surgery of the lens can produce that outcome.

Having read both The Sports Gene and The Secret Race, I can't find any justification for PED's in either book. Epstein points out that genetic manipulation (doping) has proven much more complex and difficult to achieve than expected - and is unlikely to become commonplace. While most Olympic level athletes are likely to be genetic outliers like Eero Mäntyranta, that is the result of thousands of years of natural selection.

A careful reading of The Sports Gene will show that it's central argument is that sporting success is the result of a combination of genetic talent and dedicated training. Gladwell has completely missed this when he concludes
Gladwell wrote:Hamilton and Armstrong may simply be athletes who regard this kind of achievement as worthier than the gold medals of a man with the dumb luck to be born with a random genetic mutation.

It's not dumb luck in any of the cases discussed in The Sports Gene. Rather, as Seneca, a Roman from around 1 AD, put it:
Seneca wrote:Luck is when preparation meets opportunity

That's what I value about PED free sporting competition - it tests whether preparation has met opportunity.
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Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Ross » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:32 pm

twizzle wrote:
Ross wrote:So do you (fellow forumers) reckon that cyclists are using peptides like footballers allegedly are? Are they tested for them?


Hell yes, and (AFAIK) there aren't any tests for peptides.


So how did the footballers get busted?

Interesting link saing Peptides are deadly - http://www.triplem.com.au/melbourne/spo ... -cjc-1295/
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