Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Tour de France, Giro d'Italia, Vuelta a España, Tour Down Under and more

Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:10 pm

nezumi wrote:From the other side - Matt Bottrill's attempt at the hour record is going to be put on hold because, as a non Pro Tour rider, he doesn't have a biological passport.

Source


Yes, those of us involved with the project are pretty annoyed the UCI is not adhering to their own rules.
User avatar
Alex Simmons/RST
Expert
 
Posts: 3437
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:51 pm

by BNA » Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:20 am

BNA
 

Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby AUbicycles » Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:20 am

herzog wrote:Pretty much what I was getting at 5 posts above


you subconsciously influenced my thought patterns.
User avatar
AUbicycles
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 9132
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:14 am
Location: Sydney

Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby skull » Fri Jul 25, 2014 12:39 pm

AUbicycles wrote:
herzog wrote:Pretty much what I was getting at 5 posts above


you subconsciously influenced my thought patterns.


Is that only for that event? Or a complete ban for all for x time?

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk
User avatar
skull
 
Posts: 1676
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:48 pm

Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby herzog » Fri Jul 25, 2014 1:18 pm

skull wrote:
AUbicycles wrote:
herzog wrote:Pretty much what I was getting at 5 posts above


you subconsciously influenced my thought patterns.


Is that only for that event? Or a complete ban for all for x time?



The way it works in athletics and swimming - if a single team member tests positive, the team is disqualified from that event.


This is because the doper contributed to the result of the team. Note this even occurs if the doper only took part in a heat or semi and not the final.

This happened to a US athletics relay team in the Sydney Olympics.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/others ... ydney.html


The doper then faces the same additional sanctions that they would have in an individual event.
User avatar
herzog
 
Posts: 1713
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:50 pm

Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby herzog » Fri Jul 25, 2014 1:23 pm

Also from London 2012

Tyson Gay returns Olympic silver medal with doping ban
Nick Zaccardi May 2, 2014, 7:05 PM EDT

Tyson Gay was suspended one year for his failed drug tests last year and loses all of his results from July 15, 2012, including an Olympic 4x100m relay silver medal, the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency said Friday.

Gay, 31, has returned the silver medal to the U.S. Olympic Committee.

Asked if Gay’s disqualified results meant the entire 2012 U.S. Olympic 4x100m relay team has been stripped of its medals, a spokesman for the IAAF [track and field's international governing body] responded via email:

“Yes – according to IAAF Rule 41 of IAAF competition rules of 2012.”


Rule 41 states:

1. Where the Athlete who has committed an anti-doping rule violation competed as a member of a relay team, the relay team shall be automatically disqualified from the Event in question, with all resulting consequences for the relay team, including the forfeiture of all titles, awards, medals, points and prize money.


The UCI needs to step up and get serious.
User avatar
herzog
 
Posts: 1713
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:50 pm

Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby AUbicycles » Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:20 pm

For a relay team it seems like a no-brainer approach.

In tours with a team time trial this logic can be more easily applied. But it is a team sport so yes - let the entire team be affected. For a team you are either all doping anc complicite or you don't because you know it can destroy results.
User avatar
AUbicycles
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 9132
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:14 am
Location: Sydney

Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sat Jul 26, 2014 9:26 am

And as a neo pro desperate to get or maintain a contract, you still have a massive incentive to do what it takes to perform accordingly. Just ask Tiernan-Locke.
User avatar
Alex Simmons/RST
Expert
 
Posts: 3437
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:51 pm

Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby biker jk » Mon Aug 04, 2014 10:16 am

Roman Kreuziger has been provisionally suspended by UCI. The biological passport case has dragged on but Tinkoff-Saxo put the pressure on the UCI by entering Kreuzinger in the Tour of Poland and Tour of Spain after withdrawing him from the Tour de France. Interestingly, UCI head Cookson said the UCI will now consider BP violations as equivalent to testing positive.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/roman-kreuziger-provisionally-suspended

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cookson-passport-cases-can-now-be-treated-as-positive-tests
User avatar
biker jk
 
Posts: 2666
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Xplora » Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:07 am

I don't quite understand how the principle of innocent until proven guilty is supposed to work with cases like these, biker. The rider is supposed to be suspended (aka banned from competition) but hen the legals can take months? This isn't a regular court of law, it is based solely on forensic evidence which are hard to dispute, and given that most riders are peaking and preparing for months in advance, it seems unfair to say that you can accuse a rider, stuff up team strategy, ruin sponsorship exposure, and unsettle months of training on a suspicion. Essendon are facing a similar thing. If there is enough evidence to go to the media, there should be enough to formally charge and proceed with a trial ASAP. I am cynical enough to believe that the UCI is trying to stuff Saxo-Tinkoff to help AGR or Sky.
Xplora
 
Posts: 6090
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:33 pm
Location: TL;DR

Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby biker jk » Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:09 am

Xplora wrote:I don't quite understand how the principle of innocent until proven guilty is supposed to work with cases like these, biker. The rider is supposed to be suspended (aka banned from competition) but hen the legals can take months? This isn't a regular court of law, it is based solely on forensic evidence which are hard to dispute, and given that most riders are peaking and preparing for months in advance, it seems unfair to say that you can accuse a rider, stuff up team strategy, ruin sponsorship exposure, and unsettle months of training on a suspicion. Essendon are facing a similar thing. If there is enough evidence to go to the media, there should be enough to formally charge and proceed with a trial ASAP. I am cynical enough to believe that the UCI is trying to stuff Saxo-Tinkoff to help AGR or Sky.


The problem is that the biological passport is open to interpretation. The UCI appointed panel found an anomaly in RK's profile. The UCI wrote to RK asking for an explanation. He provided an explanation ("dehydration") and the UCI rejected it. RK appointed his own ABP experts to clear him. It's very messy and the UCI knows it needs to be very sure before initiating proceedings as it's open to a long and costly legal dispute. It's not black and white like a failed EPO test. The issue of whether the UCI is targeting Tinkoff-Saxo to help Team Sky is tricky as well. I don't believe they are (and I despise Team Sky) but it would sure help perceptions of no favouritism if Cookson's son didn't work for Team Sky. Recall that McQuaids sons were rider's agents which also produced a bad smell.
User avatar
biker jk
 
Posts: 2666
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Xplora » Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:01 am

I can dig that pattern, RK has got his own evidence sorted out - I assume this was worked out a few weeks ago, hence the withdrawal from the Tour, but now back in the game? If this is the case, then unfortunately the UCI only has one choice - charge him, and issue the penalty, otherwise they have an innocent until proven guilty rider out there who has every right to compete.

You can be black as the ace of spades, until someone is prepared to lay charges and take it to a court, it means nothing. (Obeid's dealing in NSW Parliament and the ICAC proves it)
Xplora
 
Posts: 6090
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:33 pm
Location: TL;DR

Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:40 pm

It's a mess. Cookson isn't helping by making up rules as he goes along.
User avatar
Alex Simmons/RST
Expert
 
Posts: 3437
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:51 pm

Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby AUbicycles » Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:32 pm

Speed of processing would best thing that could happen for processing convictions. It would help everyone involved.

Independent lab testing is a bit of a joke - of course they are going to support an accussed rider and find logical explanations.
User avatar
AUbicycles
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 9132
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:14 am
Location: Sydney

Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby biker jk » Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:16 am

Tiernan-Locke dehydration defence (thanks to monster drinking session) rejected by UKAD. Interesting in that I just watched "The Armstrong Lie" and the great doper also claimed his strange blood reading after the Ventoux stage was due to dehydration. For those who don't recall, Armstrong risked losing his podium position but managed to climb with the Schlecks and Contador on Ventoux after struggling on previous climbs. Rumour is that he did a blood bag before Ventoux. I found it odd that Armstrong claims dehydration explains his odd blood values but somehow it didn't stop him from climbing with the best on Ventoux.

http://www.news.com.au/sport/cycling/cyclist-jonathan-tiernanlocke-says-his-doping-results-were-the-result-of-33-alcoholic-drinks/story-fngr0c3c-1227028983470
User avatar
biker jk
 
Posts: 2666
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Xplora » Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:28 am

Dehydrated from excessive efforts to keep up? It's a bit tough to call either way without knowing exactly what is going on. Definitely doesn't provide much comfort when you know that the slate isn't clean.
Xplora
 
Posts: 6090
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:33 pm
Location: TL;DR

Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:00 pm

33 units of alcohol couple of days before 260km world championship road race. So hungover couldn't drink at all the day following binge for fear of vomiting. Places 19th at worlds, best placed British rider. That's a heck of a taper.
User avatar
Alex Simmons/RST
Expert
 
Posts: 3437
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:51 pm

Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby jules21 » Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:08 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:33 units of alcohol couple of days before 260km world championship road race. So hungover couldn't drink at all the day following binge for fear of vomiting. Places 19th at worlds, best placed British rider. That's a heck of a taper.

maybe he was nervous ahead of the big race?!
Image
User avatar
jules21
 
Posts: 8704
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:14 pm
Location: deep in the pain cave

Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:30 pm

jules21 wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:33 units of alcohol couple of days before 260km world championship road race. So hungover couldn't drink at all the day following binge for fear of vomiting. Places 19th at worlds, best placed British rider. That's a heck of a taper.

maybe he was nervous ahead of the big race?!

It was immediately after being offered his £400k/year Sky contract.
User avatar
Alex Simmons/RST
Expert
 
Posts: 3437
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:51 pm

Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby jules21 » Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:53 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
jules21 wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:33 units of alcohol couple of days before 260km world championship road race. So hungover couldn't drink at all the day following binge for fear of vomiting. Places 19th at worlds, best placed British rider. That's a heck of a taper.

maybe he was nervous ahead of the big race?!

It was immediately after being offered his £400k/year Sky contract.

it's still BS. the parameters - high haematocrit, low reticulocytes - have doping written all over them. the defences are always the same "have you considered this extremely unlikely scenario? no? well maybe that provides enough doubt that you should acquit, just to be safe?" no, i don't think so..
Image
User avatar
jules21
 
Posts: 8704
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:14 pm
Location: deep in the pain cave

Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Xplora » Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:11 pm

Ultimately, this is the hard thing, Jules. In every other sphere of criminality in the Western world, the standard has always been "beyond reasonable doubt" and drug cheating is treated as guilty because of the sample, despite any explanations otherwise. I've never heard of anyone beating a positive sample.

Edit: not to say that we should "accept" any excuses, but simply to say that the professional cycling community is at the absolute limit of human achievement and we should expect some abnormality in their samples because you and I couldn't hope to average 40kmh over 3500kms in a 3 week period sucking a wheel the entire time, yet a number of these guys are going to attempt such a feat twice in a year!
Xplora
 
Posts: 6090
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:33 pm
Location: TL;DR

Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:34 pm

jules21 wrote:it's still BS.

indeed it is
User avatar
Alex Simmons/RST
Expert
 
Posts: 3437
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:51 pm

Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby biker jk » Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:12 pm

Xplora wrote:Ultimately, this is the hard thing, Jules. In every other sphere of criminality in the Western world, the standard has always been "beyond reasonable doubt" and drug cheating is treated as guilty because of the sample, despite any explanations otherwise. I've never heard of anyone beating a positive sample.

Edit: not to say that we should "accept" any excuses, but simply to say that the professional cycling community is at the absolute limit of human achievement and we should expect some abnormality in their samples because you and I couldn't hope to average 40kmh over 3500kms in a 3 week period sucking a wheel the entire time, yet a number of these guys are going to attempt such a feat twice in a year!


Indeed it's the opposite of what you suggest in that the ABP limits are set such that there's a very small chance that the tests conclude a cyclist is doping when they aren't. With such a high hurdle to indicate doping in the first place, it's a bit rich to run the innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt story.
User avatar
biker jk
 
Posts: 2666
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby ldrcycles » Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:53 pm

news.com.au wrote:"said the rider, who was contracted to Endura Racing at the time, had drunken more than"



Had drunken? :roll:
When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments- Elizabeth West.
User avatar
ldrcycles
 
Posts: 6674
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:19 pm
Location: Kin Kin, Queensland

Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby toolonglegs » Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:06 pm

There was a good reference to this in the new "secret pro" that was put up yesterday... But that page has now been taken down, something must of hit a nerve.
Image
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14383
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

Re: Crapola!!!....P.E.D's in Cycling

Postby trailgumby » Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:23 pm

Xplora wrote:Ultimately, this is the hard thing, Jules. In every other sphere of criminality in the Western world, the standard has always been "beyond reasonable doubt" and drug cheating is treated as guilty because of the sample, despite any explanations otherwise. I've never heard of anyone beating a positive sample.


Beyond reasonable doubt applies in the criminal sphere, in the western world.

This is not a criminal matter, at least it isn't at this point. (It might become so later, if the offence was committed in France, and if the police become involved.)

It is at this point a civil matter, concerning the rules of participation in a sporting competition. Therefore, the civil level of onus of proof of "balance of probability" or, to use the terms of the various ADA's, the "comfortable satisfaction" of the tribunal is applied

Seems perfectly reasonable, consistent and appropriate to me. The riders are not about to be locked up and deprived of their liberty. They're just being sent to the naughty corner for awhile.
"People have a right to their own opinions, but not their own facts. Evidence must be located, not created, and opinions not backed by evidence cannot be given much weight." -- James W Loewen

http://www.facebook.com/Drive2WorkDay
User avatar
trailgumby
 
Posts: 10306
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 4:30 pm
Location: Northern Beaches, Sydney

PreviousNext

Return to International and National Tours and Events

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users



Popular Bike Shops
Torpedo 7 Torpedo7 AU
Ground Effect Ground Effect NZ
Chain Reaction Cycles CRC UK
Wiggle Wiggle UK
Ebay Ebay AU

“Bicycles BNA Twitter
“Bicycles BNA Facebook
“Google+ BNA Google+
“Bicycles BNA Newsletter

> FREE BNA Stickers
> BNA Cycling Kit