Giro 2018 - cracker event again ?

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Re: Giro 2018 - cracker event again ?

Postby Red Rider » Tue May 29, 2018 2:44 pm

vosadrian wrote:
find_bruce wrote:
vosadrian wrote:I didn't read it before but I just did. It didn't find much sway with me.

Believe what you want to believe - my objection was to your attempt to label everyone who doesn't as hating Froome & childish.

My own perceptions are coloured by the fact that I have been watching grand tours since the early 90s. In that time every "miraculous recovery" was the result of using performance enhancing drugs. While Landis is the eminent example, Hamilton & his broken collarbone, every Tour in which Ulrich started out fresh but out of form & "rode" himself into contention, Vinokourov losing 3 minutes in stage 9 & recovering (via blood doping) to win the time trial & put himself back in contention.

To me the Giro was like watching a magic show - you don't know how the trick was done, but you do know all is not as it seems.


I like that magic trick analogy. I can see why you feel the way you feel. It is a reasonable view to have given the previous experiences. I personally am not convinced by the argument that there is no explanation so it can't be.

Does everyone here think that stage 19 was super human in the effort and that Froome was on another level compared to Dumoulin? If Dumoulin had known the way the tactics had played out and ridden the 80kms like he rides a TT with a measured effort rather than trying to work with others do you think the gap would have been less? Is a gain of 3 minutes over 80kms/2.5 hours really otherworldly unbelievable when it is common for good TT riders to pull several minutes over other top GC riders over 40k?

Anyway, we all believe what we believe. I am not a Froome fan boy. I actually liked all the contenders this year and would be happy for any of them to win. I was expecting a late comeback from Froome given his training method from the beginning of the Giro, but I hoped Yates would be up to the task. It is not that different to last year with the Dauphine/TDF last year where he rode into form. Some riders perform best as others fatigue. The two seasoned GT riders were on another level compared to anyone else in the last week.

I just love the Giro, and I thought it was a great race and am disappointed that people would write it off.


It was a superb performance by Froome on stage 19 and I don't doubt it's validity until evidence is shown to the contrary. But the same can't be said of stage 18 of last years Vuelta, we're still waiting and waiting (over 8 months!) on the outcome of his AAF, which has a material impact on whether his Giro title will stand. So did we watch a great victory, or something that will be assigned to the dustbin of history? And I don't just blame Sky/Froome for this situation. UCI should have the foresight to know what a mess their inept rules and procedures have led to.

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Re: Giro 2018 - cracker event again ?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Tue May 29, 2018 3:05 pm

Trev Campbell wrote:Until he is found guilty we have to assume he is clean.

He has been found guilty via an AAF. The onus of proof is now with Froome to demonstrate that he is not.

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Re: Giro 2018 - cracker event again ?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Tue May 29, 2018 3:13 pm

We need to be careful in attempting to link individual performances with doping. It's just not feasible to do so.

For example, the average power on the Finestre and the final climb of his solo escapade was 5.4 W/kg. That's not even close to the sort of red flag territory that even Vayer craps on about.

In a sport with a large trust deficit, once again we have a major race for which we will not know the result until a long time after everyone has gone home. It's just as likely that we won't know the result of the next TdF either until later in the year (assuming he places). And of course we still don't know the result of the Vuelta from last year yet.

This is not an acceptable scenario and his presence while ever this remains unresolved is poison for the sport.

Imagine how much more quickly Froome would be dealing with the appeal process if he was under temporary sanction?

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Re: Giro 2018 - cracker event again ?

Postby Chuck » Tue May 29, 2018 4:22 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
Imagine how much more quickly Froome would be dealing with the appeal process if he was under temporary sanction?


This....

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
Trev Campbell wrote:Until he is found guilty we have to assume he is clean.

He has been found guilty via an AAF. The onus of proof is now with Froome to demonstrate that he is not.


And this.
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Re: Giro 2018 - cracker event again ?

Postby AUbicycles » Tue May 29, 2018 4:40 pm

vosadrian wrote:I see you guys don't like Froome. You now have a confirmed reason since you have always thought he was on something... but the Giro was a great race to watch and to say it wasn't because your favourite rider didn't end up winning is a bit childish. It wouldn't be a great GT if things did get shaken up in the last week.


Plainly and simply incorrect. Before I retype - I have already shared all of the info in the previous post that show this is not the case.

If you like Froome and enjoyed the Giro - that's great, I am not going to take it away from you. It is the same as any sporting teams in competition and we have already had a FIFA reference.

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Re: Giro 2018 - cracker event again ?

Postby Thoglette » Tue May 29, 2018 7:37 pm

AUbicycles wrote:..and we have already had a FIFA reference.
Hey! I resemble that remark.

It's not just me either. Both Dave Moulton's observations and reader comments highlight the parlous state of the Grand Tours' reputation, as viewed by potential sponsors.

Meanwhile Froome has to bring home the cash. It's his job.

It's just a shame that what should have been the best ride this year (since Sagan's victory) is irreparably tainted.
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Re: Giro 2018 - cracker event again ?

Postby MichaelB » Wed May 30, 2018 9:12 am

vosadrian wrote: ....Does everyone here think that stage 19 was super human in the effort and that Froome was on another level compared to Dumoulin? If Dumoulin had known the way the tactics had played out and ridden the 80kms like he rides a TT with a measured effort rather than trying to work with others do you think the gap would have been less? Is a gain of 3 minutes over 80kms/2.5 hours really otherworldly unbelievable when it is common for good TT riders to pull several minutes over other top GC riders over 40k?.


What I don't understand is, not that he rode away and demolished the chasers (lets not forget that they waited for Reichenbach on the descent) and in hindsight Pinot was in the very early stages of illness, and Carapaz & Lopez didn't contribute at all, that in the previous stages, he only gained time on two stages (TT and Zoncolan), yet lost time on some basic climbs. It doesn't add up. I'm not accusing him of doping.

I'm with Alex, guilty via AAF. My opinion, and that of many, is that the process to resolve is taking FAR too long, and this is because Sky can make it take this long.


vosadrian wrote:I just love the Giro, and I thought it was a great race and am disappointed that people would write it off.


It was a great race, that was tainted by the inclusion of a rider that shouldn't have been there (whether he is technically allowed to or not, or whether we should even know about it).

Even the Badger says so. Bit of a stinging rebuke, but I'm on his side.

The whole Sky saga that has been opened up by all the investigations just add up to one thing as a reasonable conclusion.

Quack, quack

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EDIT : In looking for the above pic, also found this. Again, quite true ....

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Re: Giro 2018 - cracker event again ?

Postby RobertL » Wed May 30, 2018 9:34 am

What I don't understand is, not that he rode away and demolished the chasers (lets not forget that they waited for Reichenbach on the descent) and in hindsight Pinot was in the very early stages of illness, and Carapaz & Lopez didn't contribute at all, that in the previous stages, he only gained time on two stages (TT and Zoncolan), yet lost time on some basic climbs. It doesn't add up. I'm not accusing him of doping.


In my opinion, that shows that there is far less doping than there used to be. Back in the 90s, nobody had a bad day. They just performed at their drug-assisted best day after day. The fact that riders now have better days and worse days shows that they are less drug-assisted.
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Re: Giro 2018 - cracker event again ?

Postby Arbuckle23 » Wed May 30, 2018 10:09 am

I am in the Froome shouldn't have been there and the that UCI should have had it sorted out well before the Giro camps.
But he was there, no point dwelling on that.

GC in Grand Tour is about managing your body over three weeks and only attacking at the right time.
Sit back, save energy for the right moment, when your competition is tired. Use your team to tear apart the Peleton in readiness for your attack.

It was obvious on stage 19 that Sky were on a mission early. They way they were working got me very interested in staying up late.
The time taken uphill was not as significant as the time he took downhill. Froome's descending really has been the difference in recent years, it has gained him significant time advantages. He attacked, gained a gap, then extended the gap downhill and managed it from there. Dumoulin should have chased by himself instead of waiting for others who were no help.
Good move, well planned and well executed.

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Re: Giro 2018 - cracker event again ?

Postby vosadrian » Wed May 30, 2018 10:23 am

Arbuckle23 wrote:I am in the Froome shouldn't have been there and the that UCI should have had it sorted out well before the Giro camps.
But he was there, no point dwelling on that.

GC in Grand Tour is about managing your body over three weeks and only attacking at the right time.
Sit back, save energy for the right moment, when your competition is tired. Use your team to tear apart the Peleton in readiness for your attack.

It was obvious on stage 19 that Sky were on a mission early. They way they were working got me very interested in staying up late.
The time taken uphill was not as significant as the time he took downhill. Froome's descending really has been the difference in recent years, it has gained him significant time advantages. He attacked, gained a gap, then extended the gap downhill and managed it from there. Dumoulin should have chased by himself instead of waiting for others who were no help.
Good move, well planned and well executed.


This is my view also. The rules should be changed so riders cannot compete in a AAF state. Whether this means that AAF is removed and levels are changed but made absolute in regards to failure on A and B samples implies immediate suspension or existing rules apply but riders suspended until resolution.

Aside from that, Froome is just playing within the rules. He has no responsibility to go beyond the rules for the good of the sport. If I thought I was innocent and had done no wrong, I would do the same. If I thought I was guilty I would suspend myself and hide to avoid worse retribution later.

Stage 19 being unbelievable is way exaggerated. He performed at a similar level to his rival who made some bad tactical decisions and was able to pull about 1 minute per hour of riding advantage. He was like 2% quicker. Hardly unbelievable.
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Re: Giro 2018 - cracker event again ?

Postby find_bruce » Wed May 30, 2018 10:38 am

RobertL wrote:Back in the 90s, nobody had a bad day. They just performed at their drug-assisted best day after day.
That is simply not true - virtually every rider had bad days, with the exception of Indurain & Pharmstrong. The difference is that they recovered rapidly, some miraculously, as a result of their doping. The reason some drugs on the banned list are because they aid recovery.

The rules don't need to be changed - the ASO already has the power to uninvite an athlete that might damage the race's reputation & the precedent is there wit the exclusion of Russian athletes from the Olympics. I am sure that the ASO will be carefully weighing up whether or not to allow Froome to ride le Tour. I suspect that Hinault calling for Froome to be banned is an exercise in kite flying, to see which way public sentiment is swinging

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Re: Giro 2018 - cracker event again ?

Postby tcdev » Wed May 30, 2018 12:46 pm

With my considerable expertise and experience, I thought I'd better weigh in on this to set the record straight. :wink:

In regards to Stage 19 in isolation, as it has been pointed out Froome took a minute from Domoulin on the descent alone. Add to that the work of Sky earlier in the stage, an arguably inferior Sunweb team, and the tactical mistakes that Domoulin made and suddenly Froome's effort falls short of necessarily being classed as 'superhuman' IMHO. On another day in different circumstances Froome may have performed just as well but not gained the time over others that he did.

The argument of 'riding into form' late in the Giro is indeed interesting and appears to have merit looking at historical situations. But let's consider the possibility that Froome's lack of form was attributed more to injury than anything else. Could it be possible that by hindering his ability to push himself earlier in the race, he was fresher for the last week? Has he inadvertently discovered the optimal strategy for winning a grand tour? (Before you scoff, consider the evolution in strategy for 50-over cricket over the last few decades).

I like Chris Froome but not a fanboy by any means. I also like Tom Domoulin, even if I find his riding style less-than-exciting. FWIW I was rooting for Rohan Dennis and then Simon Yates. Either way, I thought it was a cracker Giro this year!
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Re: Giro 2018 - cracker event again ?

Postby fat and old » Wed May 30, 2018 1:58 pm

The wily old badger has weighed in on the debate...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/hinault ... suspended/

Some of the more entertaining bits

Bernard Hinault has not held back in his opinion on Chris Froome's Giro d’Italia victory, saying that the Team Sky rider does not belong in the history books alongside himself and Eddy Merckx. In Rome on Sunday, Froome joined Hinault and Merckx in winning all three Grand Tours consecutively, having won last year’s Tour de France and Vuelta a España.Hinault, who completed his achievement across the 1982 and 1983 seasons, went as far as saying that Froome should not have even been on the start line.

"Froome does not belong on that list," Hinault said, according to Belgian publication Het Laatste Nieuws. "He returned a positive test at the Vuelta and afterwards his B-sample proved positive, so he has used doping and he has to be suspended.


"He should never have been allowed to start in the Giro. Why do we have to wait so long for a verdict? Those two Italians who had the same thing [Alessandro Petacchi and Diego Ulissi -ed.] were suspended much faster. With what right does Froome get so much time to find an explanation? Is it because Sky has so much money?"


Errrrr....post tour criteriums Berny?? La Vie Claire?? Any of this ring a bell?? :lol: :lol:

Edit...missed the ref in MichaelB's post....sozz

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Re: Giro 2018 - cracker event again ?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed May 30, 2018 2:12 pm

find_bruce wrote:
RobertL wrote:Back in the 90s, nobody had a bad day. They just performed at their drug-assisted best day after day.
That is simply not true - virtually every rider had bad days, with the exception of Indurain & Pharmstrong. The difference is that they recovered rapidly, some miraculously, as a result of their doping. The reason some drugs on the banned list are because they aid recovery.

Indurain had a bad day at TdF in 1996 and Armstrong had a bad day in the ITT in 2003 when Ullrich put over a minute and a half into him.

Bad days happen to everyone, doping or no doping.

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Re: Giro 2018 - cracker event again ?

Postby find_bruce » Wed May 30, 2018 2:32 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Indurain had a bad day at TdF in 1996 and Armstrong had a bad day in the ITT in 2003 when Ullrich put over a minute and a half into him.

Bad days happen to everyone, doping or no doping.
Thanks Alex, better memory than me

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Re: Giro 2018 - cracker event again ?

Postby biker jk » Wed May 30, 2018 2:53 pm

Arbuckle23 wrote:The time taken uphill was not as significant as the time he took downhill.


Apparently, that is not the case.

Been seeing this a lot. First, it’s not true. It was 49% on climbs, 29% on descents, 22% on flats. Second, it means working (hard) the whole time, no respite, no shelter, & still taking time. If anything, the numbers make the performance MORE remarkable. They’re not mitigating.

https://twitter.com/Scienceofsport/status/1000408199080521728

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Re: Giro 2018 - cracker event again ?

Postby AUbicycles » Wed May 30, 2018 4:44 pm

Why dwell? Because we are the fans and supports and it is the same old rubbish again.

For Froome, the 1.4 million Euro appearance fee was far more compelling than being a gentleman... but yes it is the rules however the rules are flawed because this should not be acceptable.
Last edited by AUbicycles on Wed May 30, 2018 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Changed 'broken' to 'flawed' for clarity

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Re: Giro 2018 - cracker event again ?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed May 30, 2018 5:43 pm

biker jk wrote:
Arbuckle23 wrote:The time taken uphill was not as significant as the time he took downhill.


Apparently, that is not the case.

Been seeing this a lot. First, it’s not true. It was 49% on climbs, 29% on descents, 22% on flats. Second, it means working (hard) the whole time, no respite, no shelter, & still taking time. If anything, the numbers make the performance MORE remarkable. They’re not mitigating.

https://twitter.com/Scienceofsport/status/1000408199080521728


I don't quite get that analysis. Can you point out the flat terrain from the Finestre to the finish?

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Re: Giro 2018 - cracker event again ?

Postby biker jk » Wed May 30, 2018 6:44 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
biker jk wrote:
Arbuckle23 wrote:The time taken uphill was not as significant as the time he took downhill.


Apparently, that is not the case.

Been seeing this a lot. First, it’s not true. It was 49% on climbs, 29% on descents, 22% on flats. Second, it means working (hard) the whole time, no respite, no shelter, & still taking time. If anything, the numbers make the performance MORE remarkable. They’re not mitigating.

https://twitter.com/Scienceofsport/status/1000408199080521728


I don't quite get that analysis. Can you point out the flat terrain from the Finestre to the finish?

Image


It's a false flat, neither a climb nor a descent. Doesn't change the conclusion though does it? Here's another breakdown which also shows that the time gained on the descents was around 30% of the total. So the Froome fanboy claims that most of the time gained was on descents is plainly wrong. What are you thoughts on Froome's average power per kilogram for his two hour solo effort compared to Landis' effort?

https://goo.gl/EEq8Fc

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Re: Giro 2018 - cracker event again ?

Postby AUbicycles » Wed May 30, 2018 7:19 pm

There was a claim by CyclinTips The Secret Pro that the gains were on the descents. I am not sure how their data or insights were gained.

The organisers should put a few hills in the race though, make it a bit more exciting :)

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Re: Giro 2018 - cracker event again ?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu May 31, 2018 7:37 am

biker jk wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
biker jk wrote:
Apparently, that is not the case.

Been seeing this a lot. First, it’s not true. It was 49% on climbs, 29% on descents, 22% on flats. Second, it means working (hard) the whole time, no respite, no shelter, & still taking time. If anything, the numbers make the performance MORE remarkable. They’re not mitigating.

https://twitter.com/Scienceofsport/status/1000408199080521728


I don't quite get that analysis. Can you point out the flat terrain from the Finestre to the finish?

Image


It's a false flat, neither a climb nor a descent. Doesn't change the conclusion though does it? Here's another breakdown which also shows that the time gained on the descents was around 30% of the total. So the Froome fanboy claims that most of the time gained was on descents is plainly wrong. What are you thoughts on Froome's average power per kilogram for his two hour solo effort compared to Landis' effort?

https://goo.gl/EEq8Fc

Well I think it depends on what narrative you want to make. Whether it's 30% or 50%, fact is he made significant time gains on descents to consolidate the initial attack and importantly that's where the tactical battle was really won as descents and false flats are where the way a group works together has a big impact on their success or otherwise. On climbs not so much, everyone is dealing with their own abilities for the most part. The chase group was very disjointed.

The Landis raid was a level or two above Froome's. Much further out, 5 cols, much bigger time gains with far more powerful and a greater number of opponents in the chase.

Froome's escapade was akin to a solo win from a breakaway group that we've see from many riders over the years. It just happened in this instance the breakaway group were the top 5 GC contenders (sans Yates). Those in the chasing group made mistakes and had to contend with their own tactical and strategic battles while the break rider focuses his resources on how to finish in the least time. This is normal racing and is so often how it plays out in the chase group which can be slower as a result despite superior numbers.

Climbing power on Finstre and final climb was at an average of ~5.4W/kg. His 11-min attack on the Finestre was ~5.9W/kg.

A couple of hours at 88-90% of threshold power with some lower level riding in between efforts? That's hardly unusual, just good solid tempo riding. Indeed that's a downright normal capability for most well trained riders, let alone professionals. One of my amateur athletes did pretty much the same in 7-hour long mountainous road race in the USA on the weekend, with multiple climbs of 20-50 minutes duration. Final day of a few days stage event.

I note that Froome lost time on the final climb.

This is the time gap assessment:
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Re: Giro 2018 - cracker event again ?

Postby MichaelB » Thu May 31, 2018 9:35 am

On the very last point from Alex re the final climb, I had read elsewhere that the last climb was ridden at the same pace as Froome, which supports the graph above.

Interesting data and presentation from David McCann (thanks Alex).

Still don't get how he could do that sort of effort on St 19, yet was pretty poor on others and lost time on what should have been easier climbs ??

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Re: Giro 2018 - cracker event again ?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu May 31, 2018 11:10 am

MichaelB wrote:On the very last point from Alex re the final climb, I had read elsewhere that the last climb was ridden at the same pace as Froome, which supports the graph above.

Interesting data and presentation from David McCann (thanks Alex).

Still don't get how he could do that sort of effort on St 19, yet was pretty poor on others and lost time on what should have been easier climbs ??

Was anyone in the Giro consistent? As far as I can tell, they all had a bad-ish day but there really wasn't much in it. And was Froome really all that inconsistent? See this chart INNRG does for grand tours showing the relative position on GC on main contenders compared with the eventual winner.

Image

First 2 weeks he steadily loses time but not huge chunks. Remember he crashed on day 1 just before the start. Enough to be hobbling about and in some pain (despite what he might have reported - they never give away info like that to their competitors). That takes time and resources to recover from. By latter part of week 2 he was probably getting better or perhaps not fading as much as others (consider his 3 week race stamina/experience compared with the other 5). He was likely not seeking to be in best form for Giro and TdF will still be the main game.

Froome gains some time on St 14 (Zoncolan) and pays for it a little bit the next day. Not big swings either way. Hardly unusual. If anything it's a sign of relative normality. St 16 ITT he gains on all except Dumoulin, which is exactly how it played out the last time they went head to head (world TT champs). We all know he's a good TT rider so again that was not unusual.

Keep in mind several of his competitors cracked so badly in the final week (several of whom were putting time into Froome leading up to then) they either abandoned or completely plummeted down the rankings. Why are they not pointed at as having even greater inconsistency?

Again, people will pick and choose pieces of data to suit a narrative but in reality the inconsistency applied to all of the contenders. Some more so, and some less so.

If a rider is consistent we hear shouts of "that's not possible without illegal aid!".
If a rider shows some inconsistency we hear shouts of "see, they must have been doping for such swings in form!".

Seriously, what a load of nonsense. The number of factors in play which impact race performance is so large it's simply not possible to be assigning a single causation to how race pans out.

I'm neither defending nor attacking Froome, just reading the bigger picture and putting things in context. I don't think he should have been there but that's not my call. He was and this is what happened.

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Re: Giro 2018 - cracker event again ?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu May 31, 2018 11:19 am

Quote from the INRG article I linked above:

This was a Giro marked by several stars going supernova along the way, first Chaves then Aru, Yates and finally Pinot.

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Re: Giro 2018 - cracker event again ?

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