Shimano 4700 compatiblity.

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Ivanerrol
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Shimano 4700 compatiblity.

Postby Ivanerrol » Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:12 am

I have Shimano Tiagra 4700 flat bar shifters.

perusing the internet there are conflicting information concerning the compatibility re 4700 shifters and 105 5800 or ultegra 6800 derailleurs.

Some "experts" say that the 4700 10 speed shifters will work fine with these 11 speed rear derailleurs - others say no.

Since I had a 105 5800 11 speed rear derailleur lying around I installed it. Seemed to work fine albeit with a slight clang when upshifting for a few weeks but now it's skipping gears and has rough shifting.

Do I need to go out and either buy a proper 10 speed 4700 rear derailleur? I have access to a 105 10 speed 5700.
are 10 speed 5700 or 6700 compatible?

Given that the 4700 has revised cable pull and won't work with older derailleurs
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queequeg
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Re: Shimano 4700 compatiblity.

Postby queequeg » Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:23 am

Ivanerrol wrote:I have Shimano Tiagra 4700 flat bar shifters.

perusing the internet there are conflicting information concerning the compatibility re 4700 shifters and 105 5800 or ultegra 6800 derailleurs.

Some "experts" say that the 4700 10 speed shifters will work fine with these 11 speed rear derailleurs - others say no.

Since I had a 105 5800 11 speed rear derailleur lying around I installed it. Seemed to work fine albeit with a slight clang when upshifting for a few weeks but now it's skipping gears and has rough shifting.

Do I need to go out and either buy a proper 10 speed 4700 rear derailleur? I have access to a 105 10 speed 5700.
are 10 speed 5700 or 6700 compatible?

Given that the 4700 has revised cable pull and won't work with older derailleurs


Shimano says No, you need the 4700 RD. The Tiagra 4700 series effectively uses the 11-sp cable pull, but it is still 10-sp, so the rear derailleur is still indexed differently to an 11-sp. That makes it incompatible with every other 10-sp component: http://productinfo.shimano.com/#/com/2.4?cid=C-453&acid=C-454
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Re: Shimano 4700 compatiblity.

Postby Duck! » Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:59 am

There is no indexing in the derailleur (that came and went with the Positron system 35 -odd years ago). 4700 is built on the same architecture, therefore uses the same cable pull ratio as 11-sp, so 11-sp. derailleurs most definitely do work with 4700 shifters.
Last edited by Duck! on Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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queequeg
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Re: Shimano 4700 compatiblity.

Postby queequeg » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:50 pm

Duck! wrote:There is no indexing in the derailleur (that came and went with the Positron system 35 -odd years ago). 4700 is built on the same architecture, therefore uses the same cable pull ratio as 11-sp, so 11-sp. derailleurs mosr definitely do work with 4700 shifters.


Sorry, what I meant was that although the 4700 Shifters use the same pull as the 11-sp shifters, it is still only a 10sp mechanism. So, that cable pull is indexed differently in the 4700 Rear Derailleur to account for the fact that the 10sp sprockets don't have 11sp spacing. I presume this is why you can only use the 4700 Rear Derailleur with the 4700 shifters. If you used the 11-sp derailleurs, how would it handle the 10sp sprocket spacing?
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Re: Shimano 4700 compatiblity.

Postby Duck! » Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:31 pm

Which is still incorrect. The derailleurs use the same cable pull ratio. What differs is the cable pull between the indexing points; the 4700 shifter pulls more cable than 11-sp. to jump the wider sprocket gap.

It's exactly the same as the compatibility between 8, 9 & other 10-sp. shifters & derailleurs: they share a common pull ratio the stroke length differs to suit the number of gears & associated spacing.
Last edited by Duck! on Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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MattyK
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Re: Shimano 4700 compatiblity.

Postby MattyK » Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:45 pm

does 4700 (RD and shifters) work with an older 10 speed cassette?

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Re: Shimano 4700 compatiblity.

Postby Duck! » Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:50 pm

Yes, the spacing of the sprockets hasn't changed.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Shimano 4700 compatiblity.

Postby MattyK » Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:20 pm

Cool. So theoretically I could take my 10 speed bike, fit a RD-R8000 and ST-4700 and be dandy?

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Re: Shimano 4700 compatiblity.

Postby queequeg » Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:28 pm

Duck! wrote:Which is still incorrect. The derailleurs use the same cable pull ratio. What differs is the cable pull between the indexing points; the 4700 shifter pulls more cable than 11-sp. to jump the wider sprocket gap.

It's exactly the same as the compatibility between 8, 9 & other 10-sp. shifters & derailleurs: they share a common pull ratio the stroke length differs to suit the number of gears & associated spacing.


All so confusing, but I get it now. So you could use an 11sp rear derailleur with the 4700 shifters and be ok?

Just been having a similar discussion around the TRP HY/RD Calipers and the 4700 Shifters, as the HY/RD's are specifically built for SLR-EV shifters, which 4700 shifters apparently are (according to Shimano), so the TRP HY/RD calipers are rather dodgy on all other 10-sp road levers. I bought a short arm conversion kit off ebay to correct the problem, and the guy I got them off was unaware that 4700 series shifters were different. That was going to be my fallback position if I couldn't get the SRAM 10-sp levers working.
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Re: Shimano 4700 compatiblity.

Postby Duck! » Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:45 pm

MattyK wrote:Cool. So theoretically I could take my 10 speed bike, fit a RD-R8000 and ST-4700 and be dandy?

Yes. :-)
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Shimano 4700 compatiblity.

Postby Duck! » Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:57 pm

queequeg wrote:
Duck! wrote:Which is still incorrect. The derailleurs use the same cable pull ratio. What differs is the cable pull between the indexing points; the 4700 shifter pulls more cable than 11-sp. to jump the wider sprocket gap.

It's exactly the same as the compatibility between 8, 9 & other 10-sp. shifters & derailleurs: they share a common pull ratio, the stroke length differs to suit the number of gears & associated spacing.


All so confusing, but I get it now. So you could use an 11sp rear derailleur with the 4700 shifters and be ok?

Yes, which is precisely what I said in my first reply. The only little caveat that I haven't previously raised is that the 1st-gen 11-sp. derailleurs (9000, 6800 & 5800) officially at least have a maximum sprocket capacity of 32T (28T for D-A), while 4700 has a slightly extended upper body to enable clearance for a 34T sprocket. Therefore using the wall-climber 34T cassette option with one of these 11-sp. derailleurs may not function optimally. R8000 Ultegra and imminently-available R7000 105 2nd-gen 11-sp. derailleurs do have the extended capacity to fit a 34T sprocket. R9100 D-A is officially limited to 30T, but I suspect could be persuaded to at least work with 32T.

Just been having a similar discussion around the TRP HY/RD Calipers and the 4700 Shifters, as the HY/RD's are specifically built for SLR-EV shifters, which 4700 shifters apparently are (according to Shimano), so the TRP HY/RD calipers are rather dodgy on all other 10-sp road levers. I bought a short arm conversion kit off ebay to correct the problem, and the guy I got them off was unaware that 4700 series shifters were different. That was going to be my fallback position if I couldn't get the SRAM 10-sp levers working.

The biggest change to brake pull ratio came with 2nd-generation 10-sp. (7900 Dura-Ace & its descendents); there is little difference on that front between 2-gen 10-sp. & 11-sp/4700, so they should be OK with anything 7900 or later. SRAM probably have their own pull ratio on brakes, so may or may not work with third-party systems such as the HY/RDs.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Shimano 4700 compatiblity.

Postby Duck! » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:03 pm

Ivanerrol wrote:Since I had a 105 5800 11 speed rear derailleur lying around I installed it. Seemed to work fine albeit with a slight clang when upshifting for a few weeks but now it's skipping gears and has rough shifting.

The clanging noise is probably nothing more than resonance of the larger sprockets. The rough shifting & other misbahaviour is probably nothing more sinister than cable stretch, which is completely normal, and just needs a tune.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Shimano 4700 compatiblity.

Postby Ivanerrol » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:57 pm

Here's some comments from another forum which leads me to confusion

From published info, the Tiagra 4700 cassettes use the same cog spacing as previous 10 speed units - 2.35 mm. This apparently means all old 10 speed cassettes will work with the 4700 group.

Reports from at least one mechanic says 4700 rear derailleurs are interchangeable with 5800/6800 units. Which makes me wonder...

Are the 4700 shifters unique, that they pull "more" per click than 5800/6800 shifters?
But 4700 derailleurs are the same pull ratio as 5800/6800?
This would seem to make sense, if 4700 and 5800/6800 derailleurs are truly interchangeable


Then
The new 4700 10 speed shifter is NOT compatible with the old 5700/6700 10 speed derailleurs, but IS compatible with old 10 speed cassettes and hubs when using 4700 or 5800/6800 derailleurs. you can use the 4700 rear unit, or an 11s rear D like 5800 or 6800 if you want to go "better", or if they are easier to find.


Shimano says you must use all 4700 components - marketing talk?



My issue is the chain jumping gears - just when you don't want it too.
i.e. going up a hill and the chain jumped around and I nearly fell off. :roll:
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Re: Shimano 4700 compatiblity.

Postby Ivanerrol » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:01 pm

Duck! wrote:
Ivanerrol wrote:Since I had a 105 5800 11 speed rear derailleur lying around I installed it. Seemed to work fine albeit with a slight clang when upshifting for a few weeks but now it's skipping gears and has rough shifting.

The clanging noise is probably nothing more than resonance of the larger sprockets. The rough shifting & other misbahaviour is probably nothing more sinister than cable stretch, which is completely normal, and just needs a tune.


My setup.

Tiagra 4700 flat bar shifters 2x10. 4700.
FD 4700, Chainset - 4603 (52x36), BB - 4700, Shimano Ultegra 10 speed chain, 4700 10 speed cassette. 11-25. RD 5800 11spd.

I spent 3 hours trying to get the tune right. I give up :roll:
Looks like a trip down to the LBS DeVers.
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Re: Shimano 4700 compatiblity.

Postby Duck! » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:21 pm

Ivanerrol wrote:Here's some comments from another forum which leads me to confusion

From published info, the Tiagra 4700 cassettes use the same cog spacing as previous 10 speed units - 2.35 mm. This apparently means all old 10 speed cassettes will work with the 4700 group.

Reports from at least one mechanic says 4700 rear derailleurs are interchangeable with 5800/6800 units. Which makes me wonder...

Are the 4700 shifters unique, that they pull "more" per click than 5800/6800 shifters?
But 4700 derailleurs are the same pull ratio as 5800/6800?
This would seem to make sense, if 4700 and 5800/6800 derailleurs are truly interchangeable

Yes, the 4700 shifters are unique and pull more cable. The pull ratio is a result of the derailleur geometry, specifically the relationship of the cable anchor point and the pivots. 4700/11-sp. works on a pull ratio of 1.4:1, meaning the derailleur moves 1.4mm per 1mm of cable pulled. Therefore, with 10-sp. sprocket spacing at 3.95mm between centres, that means the shifter pulls around 2.8mm for each shift. 11-sp, at 3.7mm spacing, takes 2.6mm per shift stroke. It doesn't sound like much, but it all adds up across the cassette. Old 10-sp, at a 1.7:1 ratio, only pulls 2.3mm of cable to cover the same 3.95mm sprocket space.

Then
The new 4700 10 speed shifter is NOT compatible with the old 5700/6700 10 speed derailleurs, but IS compatible with old 10 speed cassettes and hubs when using 4700 or 5800/6800 derailleurs. you can use the 4700 rear unit, or an 11s rear D like 5800 or 6800 if you want to go "better", or if they are easier to find.


Shimano says you must use all 4700 components - marketing talk?

Shimano historically don't acknowledge, publically at least, any compatibility between different speed groups, even though a great deal exists, so given that 4700 doesn't pair with other 10-sp. shifters & derailleurs, and even though it shares a lot of its underlying architecture withh 11-sp, because it is 10-sp. they treat it as a stand-alone group. Going back to the pull ratio aspect, if you tried to pair a non-4700 10-sp. (or 9, or 8-sp, they're all the same) derailleur with 1.7:1 pull ratio to a 4700 shifter, it would considerably overshift each sprocket (by nearly 1mm) because it's designed to achieve its shift length with a shorter cable stroke.


My issue is the chain jumping gears - just when you don't want it to.
i.e. going up a hill and the chain jumped around and I nearly fell off. :roll:

That's just cable tuning, possibly exacerbated by excess friction in the system, or a bent hanger.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Shimano 4700 compatiblity.

Postby Ivanerrol » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:59 pm

Duck! wrote:
My issue is the chain jumping gears - just when you don't want it to.
i.e. going up a hill and the chain jumped around and I nearly fell off. :roll:

That's just cable tuning, possibly exacerbated by excess friction in the system, or a bent hanger.


This is my flat bar conversion. Specialized Allez to flatbar.

I'll take it over to DeVers and get Peter to look at it.
They have had it before and were impressed with it when the drop bars were on it.
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Re: Shimano 4700 compatiblity.

Postby queequeg » Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:04 pm

Duck! wrote:The biggest change to brake pull ratio came with 2nd-generation 10-sp. (7900 Dura-Ace & its descendents); there is little difference on that front between 2-gen 10-sp. & 11-sp/4700, so they should be OK with anything 7900 or later. SRAM probably have their own pull ratio on brakes, so may or may not work with third-party systems such as the HY/RDs.


According to the TRP Site, "Using an open hydraulic system it’s compatible with Shimano and SRAM 11 speed road shift levers. For compatibility questions contact us to ensure this caliper will work with your existing levers".
That is only a new addition, as when I bought them it was just "they work with any road levers". I have no idea of there is any different between SRAM 10-sp and SRAM 11-sp when it comes to cable pull on the brakes, but the guy I got the conversion kit did them to run Campag brakes, which have the same issue.

If the short pull arms don't solve the issue, I'll be swapping out the SRAM 10-sp for Tiagra 4700.
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Re: Shimano 4700 compatiblity.

Postby Duck! » Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:29 pm

To the best of my knowledge SRAM haven't done anything drastic to their brake pull ratio since entering the road market, so their 10- & 11-sp. systems should be much the same (unrelated, but I know they use the same shift pull ratio for road/MTB 10-sp and road 11-sp, but incompatible with anything else....). To be honest, I haven't really looked into how well their levers pair with any other brakes, so can't give any solid answer there.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.

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Re: Shimano 4700 compatiblity.

Postby Ivanerrol » Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:39 pm

Bent deraileur hanger.

The trick is sourcing one the same from Specialized. :roll:
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Re: Shimano 4700 compatiblity.

Postby Ivanerrol » Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:04 pm

Derailleur hanger - Stock item

Paid $29.00 for the stilysed “S”
$1.00 for the hanger
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