Wheel building!

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Wheel building!

Postby Hotdog » Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:38 pm

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I'm all set to give it a go :) I'm building up some 700c wheels for the Comfy Chair (my Bacchetta Giro 26 recumbent) so I've got some XT hubs, DT Swiss double butted spokes and HPlusSon Formation Face rims. Tool wise I've got a Minoura True Pro wheel truing kit and a Park TM-1 spoke tension meter.
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by BNA » Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:12 pm

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Postby Boognoss » Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:12 pm

What, you haven't finished building the wheels yet? :twisted:

Photos when they're built please.

How much did all the stuff (tools and wheels) set you back?
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Postby bigfriendlyvegan » Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:36 pm

And where did you get the tensiometer from? (I baulk at doing it by sound since I'm tone deaf).

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Postby Hotdog » Wed Nov 19, 2008 9:01 pm

I got the tensiometer from an America seller on eBay. He had a load of them, and worked out a fair bit cheaper the any other source I could find.

It'd take me a little while to work how much I've spent on the lot as I bought them from a bunch of places (hubs, spokes, tyres and tubes from Chain Reaction, rims direct from the manufacturer, tensiometer from eBay and truing kit from Dean Wood Direct). Off the top of my head I can say that the truing kit was $200 Australian, the tensiometer was about $80 US including P&P and the rims were $220 US including P&P for the pair.

No photos yet, but I've now got the trailing spokes installed in the front wheel...
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Postby HappyHumber » Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:05 pm

bigfriendlyvegan wrote:And where did you get the tensiometer from? (I baulk at doing it by sound since I'm tone deaf).

I'm a bit the same... I picked up one of these "consumer" orientated Park Tool jobbies from the Harris Cyclery website, before our dollar took a dive. I think it only (then) cost me about $50.

Building wheels is fun... but I do have to be the right mood to sit with it.

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Postby ajh_ausnzcf » Thu Nov 20, 2008 1:06 am

How do you plan to go about building these wheels?

A bit hard to build only one set of wheels. Some spoke thread lock is often advised, DT Swiss and Wheelsmith are the ones I know of.
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Postby Hotdog » Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:45 am

ajh_ausnzcf wrote:How do you plan to go about building these wheels?

By carefully following Sheldon Brown's wheelbuilding guide, with the aid of some additional information from the Park Tools site and a few other places (such as other people's wheelbuilding experiences on this site). I think I've got a pretty good understanding of the process in theory, and I'm ready to learn by doing :)

A bit hard to build only one set of wheels. Some spoke thread lock is often advised, DT Swiss and Wheelsmith are the ones I know of.


I don't really understand you comment about it being hard to build one set of wheels, your first wheelbuild is your first wheelbuild no matter how many sets you're planning to do, surely?
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Postby ajh_ausnzcf » Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:16 am

Hotdog wrote:I don't really understand you comment about it being hard to build one set of wheels, your first wheelbuild is your first wheelbuild no matter how many sets you're planning to do, surely?


It's a fair bit of effort if you don't have a building routine, it's easy to make a mistake and weaken a component. That said it's also an enlightening experience to how complex the bicycle wheel is. I've only managed to build one set of wheels and I'll not do it again, paying the local builder is well worthwhile. I'll just stick to truing and repair.

A quick look through Sheldon's guide it seems to be good, labels on eyelets and spokes help when your building a single set. Does it mention spoke punch somewhere in there? Use that to seat the spoke elbow into the hub flange.

Good luck and post your experience, I'm sure there are experienced people here that can help you out more than me.
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Postby bowie » Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:12 am

For yee that are tone deaf. A simple Electronic Pitch detector.. aka Guitar tuner, (Cromatic ones are better then the digital ones) can be had for around the $50 mark. And are more then sensitive enough to gain pitch from a vibrating spoke ;)
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Postby Tom Marius » Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:08 am

what key should wheels be in? :lol:
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Postby Hotdog » Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:30 am

Well, according to this, mine should somewhere between the A sharp and the B above middle C. Not having a musical instrument or guitar tuner handy I'm going have to just use the spoke tensiometer instead though... ;)
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Postby ajh_ausnzcf » Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:37 am

Hotdog wrote:Well, according to this, mine should somewhere between the A sharp and the B above middle C. Not having a musical instrument or guitar tuner handy I'm going have to just use the spoke tensiometer instead though... ;)


That's the way, once you have one at the right tension you use it's pitch as a guide to tensioning the others.
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Postby Nate » Thu Nov 20, 2008 12:27 pm

Tom Marius wrote:what key should wheels be in? :lol:


A, good country key.
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Postby Aushiker » Thu Nov 20, 2008 1:24 pm

G'day

Wheel truing gets a mention this week at BikeRadar.com. Must be the season :)

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Postby Hotdog » Thu Nov 20, 2008 1:46 pm

Aushiker wrote:G'day

Wheel truing gets a mention this week at BikeRadar.com. Must be the season :)

Andrew

Thanks for the link, skimming it I spotted a tip on how to insert spoke nipples into deep section rims and as mine are 42mm deep it's going to be very helpful!

Sheldon's guide is great (of course) but it's often useful to read/hear several different takes on any subject. I'll read the rest of the BikeRadar article later.
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Postby mikeg » Thu Nov 20, 2008 3:44 pm

Hotdog wrote:
Aushiker wrote:G'day

Wheel truing gets a mention this week at BikeRadar.com. Must be the season :)

Andrew

Thanks for the link, skimming it I spotted a tip on how to insert spoke nipples into deep section rims and as mine are 42mm deep it's going to be very helpful!

Sheldon's guide is great (of course) but it's often useful to read/hear several different takes on any subject. I'll read the rest of the BikeRadar article later.


I have used an old spoke part threaded on to the wrong end of the spoke nipple. Something on the old spoke to stop it screwing further into the nipple helps.

That is the same Wheel building set I bought in January.
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Postby Hotdog » Thu Nov 20, 2008 4:11 pm

mikeg wrote:I have used an old spoke part threaded on to the wrong end of the spoke nipple. Something on the old spoke to stop it screwing further into the nipple helps.

That's exactly what the BikeRadar article suggests, only they didn't add the additional detail of some sort of stop on the spare spoke thread like you do.

This is helpful stuff, and very timely. When I was putting in the trailing spokes of the first wheel last night I was able to get the spokes to reach through the spoke holes to the outer edge of the rim by rotating the hub, which made it easy enough to screw the nipples on. I did occur to me at the time though that I wasn't going to able to do this for the leading spokes and that I'd need another approach. I may have come up with the spare spoke idea in the end, but you guys have saved me some puzzled head scratching while I worked it out, at the very least.

That is the same Wheel building set I bought in January.


Interesting. What's your opinion of it?
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Postby mikeg » Thu Nov 20, 2008 4:40 pm

Hotdog wrote:
That is the same Wheel building set I bought in January.


Interesting. What's your opinion of it?


It's OK, does the job. The feeler arms aren't independently adjustable, and isn't even left & right. Because it folds up, it has some flex overall.
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Postby Hotdog » Thu Nov 20, 2008 4:58 pm

mikeg wrote:The feeler arms aren't independently adjustable, and isn't even left & right.

That's a 'feature'. You can adjust it left and right (just loosen the two mounting bolts and slide the whole gauge assembly), you're supposed to centre it between the dropouts using the black triangle as a reference. Once it's properly aligned you shouldn't need to adjust the arms independently, just set the separation as needed for the rim width. If the rim is noticeably off to one side then it means either the dishing is off or you need to realign the gauge.
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Postby bigfriendlyvegan » Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:34 pm

bowie wrote:For yee that are tone deaf. A simple Electronic Pitch detector.. aka Guitar tuner, (Cromatic ones are better then the digital ones) can be had for around the $50 mark. And are more then sensitive enough to gain pitch from a vibrating spoke ;)


I had wondered if they would be any good but didn't want to invest the funds in buying one or the time in making one. I'll see if I can borrow one and give it a go.

Cheers,
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Postby Kalgrm » Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:09 pm

Aushiker wrote:G'day

Wheel truing gets a mention this week at BikeRadar.com. Must be the season :)

Andrew

Indeed!

When I got home this afternoon from being away for a stint, my new ENO eccentric hub was waiting for me. So I pulled apart the wheel I was going to sacrifice for the rim and got to work building up the SS MTB wheel. Had it all done within 2 hours, again using Sheldon's words of wisdom. Didn't bother with a truing stand though - that's what bikes are for (when you turn them upside down. ;))

You'll find it a breeze Hotdog. It's not astrophysics, after all ... ;)

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Postby mikeg » Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:30 pm

These are some notes & tips given to me by Mark at Moruya Bicycles

Wheel Building

LACING PROCEDURE

These instructions assume we are working with a right leading rim, and building 3x.

    1.) Hold hub vertically with right flange up.

    2.) Insert 1 right spoke through right flange from top.

    3.) Insert 1 left spoke through left flange from top, half a space in front of right spoke. (In front relative to direction of wheel rotation).

    4.) Still holding hub vertically, insert LH spokes in every second hole in LH flange, then repeat with RH spokes in every second hole in the right RH flange. (top).

    5.) Turn hub over and finish filling RH flange with RH spokes, and LH flange with LH spokes.

    6.) Take a right spoke coming from the inside of the right flange and insert into 2nd hold in front of valve hole on rim.

    7.) Count 3 right static spokes back from first spoke, lace under first spoke and insert into rim 2 holes in front of first spoke.

    8.) Holding wheel vertically, right on right, work forward around wheel inserting right spokes into RH side spoke holes in rim (every second hole), pulling and static alternately. (Don't forget to lace them under the last spoke they cross).

    9.) Take a left side pulling spoke (inside of flange), look across hub to see which right side pulling spoke is half a space ahead, and lace left spoke to rim one hole behind corresponding right spoke.

    10.) Holding wheel vertically with right to left, count 3 static spokes forward in hub and lace under first left spoke and insert in first available hole in rim.

    11.) Work backward (towards yourself) around wheel inserting alternate pulling and static spokes until wheel is finished.



GENERAL NOTES - WHEELBUILDING

Right or left leading rims
View rim from outside (through the tyre if it was there) and locate valve hole. Spoke holes alternate from right to left around rim. Spokes work in corresponding pairs right and left. 2 pulling spokes are in front of the valve hole and 2 static spokes behind, enabling pump access to valve. In the pair of spoke holes in front of the valve hole, if the leading one (second in front of valve hole) is on the right, the rim is a right leading rim. Almost all rims are right leading, and I think that possibly all new rims are right leading.

Pulling and Static Spokes
Sometimes called pulling and pushing.
We assume the hub rotates forward, pulling the rim behind. We always use spokes inserted through outside of flange (therefore with the spoke being on the inside of the flange) for pulling spokes.

Symmetrical vs. Identical Lacing
Pulling spokes can be either on the inside of both flanges, outside of both flanges, on the right of both flanges or the left of both flanges. The advantage of building symmetrically is that the rear rim has no tendency to move to one side under extreme pedalling forces.

Inside Pulling vs. Outside Pulling
We use spokes coming from the inside of the flange for pulling spokes. (Laces from the outside).
This is so that in extreme pedalling forces in first gear when the rear derailleur is closest to the spokes, when the pulling spokes are relatively tight and the static spokes relatively loose, the spoke junction where the spokes are laces, will tend to pull away rather than towards the derailleur.

Right / Left Spoke Lengths
Right spokes are about 2mm shorter than left spokes. Left spokes are the same length as front wheel spokes. If using the same length spokes for both sides of a rear wheel, tightening right spokes about 5 full turns more than left spokes will get in the right "ballpark" before checking with dishing tool.
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Postby artemidorus » Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:46 pm

ajh_ausnzcf wrote:That's the way, once you have one at the right tension you use it's pitch as a guide to tensioning the others.

This won't work, because you will alter the tension in your "reference" spoke as you tighten up the others. And how will you know that it is right to start with?
There's no substitute for a tensiometer.
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Postby ajh_ausnzcf » Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:58 pm

artemidorus wrote:
ajh_ausnzcf wrote:That's the way, once you have one at the right tension you use it's pitch as a guide to tensioning the others.

This won't work, because you will alter the tension in your "reference" spoke as you tighten up the others. And how will you know that it is right to start with?
There's no substitute for a tensiometer.


You USE the tension meter, you don't tension a spoke once to set it, you have to work the spokes to the correct tension many times to achieve the desired result. It is not set and forget..
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Postby artemidorus » Fri Nov 21, 2008 4:09 pm

ajh_ausnzcf wrote:
artemidorus wrote:
ajh_ausnzcf wrote:That's the way, once you have one at the right tension you use it's pitch as a guide to tensioning the others.

This won't work, because you will alter the tension in your "reference" spoke as you tighten up the others. And how will you know that it is right to start with?
There's no substitute for a tensiometer.


You USE the tension meter, you don't tension a spoke once to set it, you have to work the spokes to the correct tension many times to achieve the desired result. It is not set and forget..

That is exactly my point and exactly why your proposal to use the first spoke for reference pitch would not have been helpful.
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