Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby waynohh » Wed Jun 17, 2009 5:01 pm

Wow, so much effort if you have spoke holes to worry about! No wonder the take up is so slow...
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by BNA » Wed Jun 17, 2009 6:14 pm

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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby CoffsGal » Wed Jun 17, 2009 6:14 pm

waynohh wrote:Wow, so much effort if you have spoke holes to worry about! No wonder the take up is so slow...

Well it isn't really a effort...just a couple of minutes to roll two turns of the spoke tape around the rim...the issue is that the spoke tape is difficult to source and more expensive than it needs to be...no doubt that will change in time...

I mentioned a couple of days ago that I had a puncture (but not a flat), and the hole continued to spatter sealant on the frame intermittently during the remainder of the ride. As the hole was not tiny, I wondered if I might need to to put a patch on the inside of the tyre. I left the wheel with the hole at the bottom overnight and today I did a short 32km ride and had no sealant escaping.

That is now two punctures that have sealed themselves and haven't required further action except to top up the air the the next day in the most recent case.

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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby herzog » Wed Jun 17, 2009 6:15 pm

waynohh wrote:Wow, so much effort if you have spoke holes to worry about! No wonder the take up is so slow...


Not as much effort as fixing a puncture in the rain!
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby twizzle » Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:00 pm

Armadillo's are $60, last around 2,500km and I'd get two or three punctures in that time, often with the holes next to seams in the rubber making them difficult to patch. The Krylion Carbons are ~$55 and get around the same puncture rate. So call is $55-$60 + $14 in tubes (2 tubes) + $6 in CO2, vs. $63 for a tubeless and about $1.50 in sealant. Assuming I wear the tyre out at about the same distance... I'm ahead financially PLUS I miss out on roadside repairs. Which, with damp/wet roads being pretty common for the next three months, were going to be a more common problem.

BTW - I'm only going to run tubeless in the rear (for now). I've only had two front punctures in two years.
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby Kalgrm » Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:33 pm

twizzle wrote:BTW - I'm only going to run tubeless in the rear (for now). I've only had two front punctures in two years.

Oh dear. Is your life insurance up to date? ;)

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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby twizzle » Thu Jun 18, 2009 10:17 am

Kalgrm wrote:
twizzle wrote:BTW - I'm only going to run tubeless in the rear (for now). I've only had two front punctures in two years.

Oh dear. Is your life insurance up to date? ;)

Cheers,
Graeme

:?:
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby 531db » Thu Jun 18, 2009 10:44 am

twizzle wrote:
Kalgrm wrote:
twizzle wrote:BTW - I'm only going to run tubeless in the rear (for now). I've only had two front punctures in two years.

Oh dear. Is your life insurance up to date? ;)

Cheers,
Graeme

:?:


I'm guessing Graeme is refering to the differing handling characteristics of tubeless at 90 psi on the rear, and tubed at 111/120 psi on the front. Could be interesting in a Stromlo crit.

Sort of like with cars where you don't mix radial and crossply tyres.
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby Kalgrm » Thu Jun 18, 2009 11:09 am

Sorry, it was a bit obtuse.

I was referring to the fact that you're prepared to have a front tyre puncture, which is potentially more dangerous than a rear tyre one. Of course, the probability of having that puncture is very low and is not increased by having a tubeless tyre on the rear.

'Twas a joke ... :oops:

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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby twizzle » Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:49 pm

Load/pressure curve for the tyres I run is pretty much all the same - I'll be running 120psi front & back. I doubt it's going to affect the handling noticeably. But I'll check it out.

And Kalgrm - that was a SAD attempt at humour. You should have just called me a tight-arse for only spending money on one end of the bike and unfashionable for not having matched tyres. :P
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby Kalgrm » Thu Jun 18, 2009 5:27 pm

twizzle wrote:And Kalgrm - that was a SAD attempt at humour.

Sums up my life, really ... ;)
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby MountGower » Thu Jun 18, 2009 5:33 pm

This thread has kept me coming back. A great thread, indeed. Unfortunately it may be a few months before I get a chance to go tubeless myself. However, in the mean time I would really like to know if anyone discovers a place to buy Intensives for a good price. Preferably in 25c.
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby twizzle » Thu Jun 18, 2009 8:22 pm

MountGower wrote:This thread has kept me coming back. A great thread, indeed. Unfortunately it may be a few months before I get a chance to go tubeless myself. However, in the mean time I would really like to know if anyone discovers a place to buy Intensives for a good price. Preferably in 25c.


They only make them in 25mm....
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby CoffsGal » Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:11 pm

An update on my update...

I mentioned yesterday that a puncture I received on the weekend had sealed itself, and that I had since done a 32km ride without any leakage...today as it was a little wet outdoors, I did a spin on the rollers. After about 4km the hole started spitting sealant again. So it was off with the tyre and I fitted a patch to the inside. The hole was similar in size to a hole that one would patch in a normal clincher anyway. The rollers obviously were too much for the sealant, probably due to all the weight being on such a small suface area causing considerable tyre distortion.

I did have a close inspection of the rear tyre and noticed several slices along the tread. The slices are not very deep and I suspect are from locking the rear wheel on a couple of occasion while braking down a steep hill. This indicates to me that the Hutchison Fusion2 tubeless are not as robust as the GP4000S's that I used previously, which didn't show this type of wear.

The Hutchison Intensive would probably be a better alternative for commuting purposes (if one could find them). According to their website they have increased wearability and puncture resistance over the Fusion 2.

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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby twizzle » Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:04 am

Rollers and trainers put significantly more stress on a tyre than riding on the road. Some of the manufacturers make a tyre specifically for use with trainers. I'll also be looking out for the 'Intensive' when it becomes available through the online shops.
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby CoffsGal » Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:30 pm

Here is the response from Wiggle to my email asking about Stan's 21mm Yellow tape...

Thank you for your email.

we have the 21mm stan's rim tape available here (yellow rather than as pictured)
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/p/cycle/7/No_Tu ... 360042194/

Regards

Shane

Wiggle Customer Services


This makes the tape AU$7.72 plus delivery...

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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby twizzle » Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:33 am

CoffsGal wrote:Here is the response from Wiggle to my email asking about Stan's 21mm Yellow tape...

Thank you for your email.

we have the 21mm stan's rim tape available here (yellow rather than as pictured)
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/p/cycle/7/No_Tu ... 360042194/

Regards

Shane

Wiggle Customer Services


This makes the tape AU$7.72 plus delivery...

Emma


Oh, that really sucks. :evil: Why couldn't they have had that shown correctly when I was ordering!

Neither my tape or my stems has shipped yet.
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby justD » Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:50 pm

Boys and girls, I can't tell you how happy I am to have found this topic...

Tonight I realized that out of the 4 tubes I've replaced this year, 3 attempts were unsuccessful. Tonight was no different! I put a new tube in the back and as soon as I had the wheel back on the bike, it went "pooffff" and I felt the air escaping past my face. SUX!!! I am Mr clumsy/unhandy himself.

So I'll get one more tube this week, but start sourcing what I need to go tubeless. There is hope for me after all :)
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby waynohh » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:42 am

Here's the complete list of stuff to get:

2x roadtubeless tires (required)
Fusion 2 $65 ea http://www.wiggle.co.uk/p/cycle/7/Hutchinson_Fusion_2_Tubeless_Road_Tyre/5360042198/
OR Intensive (training, not available) <insert non existent url here>
OR Atom (race)

2x valve stems (required)
Stans 44mm road $12 ea http://www.wiggle.co.uk/p/cycle/7/No_Tubes_44mm_Road_Valve_Stem/5360042193/ (longest and best choice. order 4x for spares)
OR Stans mtb UST $12 ea http://www.wiggle.co.uk/p/cycle/7/No_Tubes_Valve_Stem/5360027648/
(mtb UST may be an ok substitute if your rims are shallow enough, eg front Ksyrium Elite is shallow enough, rear is not)

2x compatible wheels (required)
Your existing rims with 1x Stans 21mm yellow rim tape $8 ea http://www.wiggle.co.uk/p/cycle/7/No_Tubes_Stan's_Rim_Tape/5360042194/
(order 2x for spares)
OR
Shimano Dura Ace 7850 SL $970/set http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=25969 (best choice, square rim lip)
Mavic Ksyrium Elite silver $720/set http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=30809 (cheaper option, round rim lip)
Mavic Ksyrium Elite black $750/set <same as above>
Mavic Ksyrium SL $1200/set, SL Premium (AT) $1300/set, R-Sys (AT) $1770/set + IMPORT TAX unless you order front and rear separate with adequate time between.
Shimano Ultegra 6700 <coming late 2009>

1x sealant (required unless using square lip rims i.e. DA/Ultegra)
Stans sealant 500ml $16 ea http://www.wiggle.co.uk/p/cycle/7/No_Tubes_473ml_Tyre_Sealant/5360027640/
OR Stans sealant 1L $24 ea http://www.wiggle.co.uk/p/cycle/7/No_Tubes_946ml_Tyre_Sealant/5360027641/
OR Joes sealant
OR liquid latex, etc

1x valve core remover (optional)
Stans valve core remover $8 ea http://www.wiggle.co.uk/p/cycle/7/No_Tubes_Core_Remover/5360027642/

Example shopping list:
2x Fusion 2 $65 ea = $130
4x Stans 44mm road $12 ea = $48
2x Stans 21mm rim tape $8 ea = $16
1x Stans sealant 500ml $16 ea = $16
Total = $210 AUD
Free shipping
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby toolonglegs » Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:13 pm

Nice work there :D .
I notice there are a lot of wheels promoting "2 way fit" now....the change is coming.
But will say they do need to get a very robust tyre on the market because I wouldn't call Fusion 2's overly tough.They are a race tyre and are not really suited to training or commuting.I have been training for a while on older ones and haven't had them last long.
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby justD » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:25 pm

Okay, I was at the LBS today to pick up 2 new tubes. They said the tubeless system (Stan's) is only available on high-end racing bikes and not on my Giant Elwood SE (Hybrid) and that I'd have to replace the whole wheel, which is pretty expensive!!

Is this true? I don't know much about tyres, but...

My bike's specs are:
rims: Alloy double wall 700c x 36H
tyres: Kenda 700 x 38c

I have already replaced my tyres with Armadillo 700x28c and on the Hutchinson Fusion 2 info page on Wiggle they mention 700 x 28C, so surely that means they'll fit?

Thanks for the info waynohh and everyone so far.
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby CoffsGal » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:32 pm

justD wrote:Okay, I was at the LBS today to pick up 2 new tubes. They said the tubeless system (Stan's) is only available on high-end racing bikes and not on my Giant Elwood SE (Hybrid) and that I'd have to replace the whole wheel, which is pretty expensive!!

Is this true? I don't know much about tyres, but...

My bike's specs are:
rims: Alloy double wall 700c x 36H
tyres: Kenda 700 x 38c

I have already replaced my tyres with Armadillo 700x28c and on the Hutchinson Fusion 2 info page on Wiggle they mention 700 x 28C, so surely that means they'll fit?

Thanks for the info waynohh and everyone so far.

The fusion 2 Tubeless only come in 700x23...you may have been looking at the standard Fusion 2 which is not tubeless...also note the sizing chart on Wiggle states that not all tyres come in the sizes mentioned...

http://www.hutchinsontires.com/us/catalogue-route.php?fiche=fusion2-rtl.php&univers=4&pid=3

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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby justD » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:18 pm

CoffsGal wrote:...also note the sizing chart on Wiggle states that not all tyres come in the sizes mentioned...


Yep, I thought the "Sizing Information" chart on that page was all the sizes that the tubeless tyre comes in. Sux bigtime!!

Well, at least I got a normal tube into my wheel tonight without ripping it apart. This is my handywork on a brand new tube last night:

Image

Also, I've learnt that I have a car valve on the back and a french valve (?) on the front and french valve as a spare. Spare would not be much use if I got a flat on the back as I don't have an extra little fitting to make the french valve fit on my rims... So we learn.

Guess I'll just have to keep practicing with changing tyres. What are my alternatives? What's the strongest/most glass resistent tyre/tube I can get for a 700x35c?
Actually, I'll do a bit of searching and I need to understand tyre sizes - guess there might be something out there for me still.
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby Thoglette » Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:52 am

justD wrote:Guess I'll just have to keep practicing with changing tyres. What are my alternatives? What's the strongest/most glass resistent tyre/tube I can get for a 700x35c?

Just about anything with a kelvar (aka aramid) puncture belt. Eg. Schwabe Marathon Supreme, Panaracer Pasela Tourguard to name a few.
justD wrote:Actually, I'll do a bit of searching and I need to understand tyre sizes - guess there might be something out there for me still.


Go and read Sheldon's article on tyres There's a link to the joys of tyre sizes there too
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby justD » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:33 pm

Thanks for that Thoglette,

Seems like there is hope for me afterall - here's a 700x35c from noTubes.com - http://www.notubes.com/product_info.php/products_id/441.
What drives me up the wall, is the well-known LBS who told me I can't get it on my wheel size, is listed as a dealer for Dirt Works Australia, who distributes NoTubes' products. Why don't they say they're not certain instead of leading me to believe that I'll have to replace my rims?
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby CoffsGal » Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:38 pm

justD wrote:Thanks for that Thoglette,

Seems like there is hope for me afterall - here's a 700x35c from noTubes.com - http://www.notubes.com/product_info.php/products_id/441.
What drives me up the wall, is the well-known LBS who told me I can't get it on my wheel size, is listed as a dealer for Dirt Works Australia, who distributes NoTubes' products. Why don't they say they're not certain instead of leading me to believe that I'll have to replace my rims?

The tyre you have linked to is a cylocross type...it will fit your rims but wont have the best rolling properties for road use...it has a maximum pressure of 45psi which is a very low maximum...unless you are doing a majority of kms off road this probably wont be a good choice...

Maybe get some tuition on tyre and tube fitting and you will be ok with standard tubed clinchers...there is lots of info on the net or ask your local bike club, LBS, BUG etc...

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