Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Workshop tales, trials and disasters.
Maintenance tips, techniques and myths.
Technical discussion, description and outright lies

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby twizzle » Fri Aug 28, 2009 10:53 am

jacks1071 wrote:Getting too hard.

I might chuck them on my windy-day race wheels which are about 26mm alloy rim and test them on those. At least then I'll know if the effort of making a valve extension would be worth it. I think the only way to do the extensions would be to get someone to turn them up. I want the valve at the end though so I don't have to leave the valve undone as this might be a problem with the goop leaking.


I had one thought, a simple but permanent solution. Use two valve extenders (loctite thread sealant at the join), and epoxy it top & bottom into the rim. It won't leak, you can replace the valve core when you want to - but you don't get to change your mind.
I ride, therefore I am.
...real cyclists don't have squeaky chains...
User avatar
twizzle
 
Posts: 6382
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:45 am
Location: Taking a break.

by BNA » Sat Aug 29, 2009 10:18 pm

BNA
 

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby jacks1071 » Sat Aug 29, 2009 10:18 pm

twizzle wrote:
jacks1071 wrote:Getting too hard.

I might chuck them on my windy-day race wheels which are about 26mm alloy rim and test them on those. At least then I'll know if the effort of making a valve extension would be worth it. I think the only way to do the extensions would be to get someone to turn them up. I want the valve at the end though so I don't have to leave the valve undone as this might be a problem with the goop leaking.


I had one thought, a simple but permanent solution. Use two valve extenders (loctite thread sealant at the join), and epoxy it top & bottom into the rim. It won't leak, you can replace the valve core when you want to - but you don't get to change your mind.


I gave up on putting it onto the deep rims for now. The only real solution is a valve extension with thread on it which I could get made but to be worthwhile I'd have to do a heap of them.

I've put them onto a set of Pro-Lite Bracciano's and raced them today, 2nd place!

They roll and feel like tubulars, only took about 20 minutes per wheel (I've done heaps of MTB wheels with similar systems).

Didn't leak at all - perfect first go.

Its a good solution, will see how the tyres hold up - I'll probably only use them for racing so durability isn't much of a problem. They are a bit soft feeling so I think they will cut easily but no doubt we'll see more tyres in the future. If you're getting pinch flats or you want to run lower pressures to increase comfort then this is a good solution.
Our Website is: http://www.pro-liteoz.com Find us on Facebook by searching for "Pro-Lite Australia"
User avatar
jacks1071
 
Posts: 2897
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:47 pm
Location: Mackay, QLD

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby Dr_Mutley » Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:19 pm

i have run tubeless on my MTB for awhile now and love the puncture resistance, being able to run lower pressures, and reduction in wheel weight and RR

I am surprised there arent many tubeless tire options in the roady world... so my questions are:

1) Has anyone tried non-tubless tires as tubeless? if so have they stuck to the rim? have they failed in anyway?
I am aware of the greater pressure factor in road tires, but i am wondering if the beads on normal road tires are sufficient to run them tubeless, similar to non-tubeless MTB tires... I have run slicks non-tubeless slicks on my MTB at 70 or 80psi without problems so hence my curiosity? All of my MTB tires i have used tubless were non-tubeless tires...

2) Has anyone experimented with the rim tape?
anyone used the fibreglass tape from hardware shops similar to the ghetto tubless setups used extensively in the MTB world? Anyone tried stretching a cutdown MTB tube or 650c tube onto a 700 rim to use as a rim strip?

some interesting links to tubeless in MTBs are:
http://www.rotorburn.com/forums/showthr ... o+tubeless
videos here: http://www.rotorburn.com/forums/showpos ... tcount=161
Image
Dr_Mutley
 
Posts: 2162
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 1:28 pm
Location: Flagstaff Hill, Adelaide SA 5159

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby toolonglegs » Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:25 pm

Once you've handled a tubeless road tyre you realise why you would not try to run a non tubeless tyre tubeless...they are quite heavily made and there is very little give in the bead.You would be mad to run a 115psi in a non tubeless tyre.
On the rim tape...why bother going ghetto?....the Stans yellow tape is about $2 to $3 per rim.
Image
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14354
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby Thoglette » Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:11 am

Dr_Mutley wrote:I am surprised there arent many tubeless tire options in the roady world...


The reason being (and I'm going to get shouted down here :-) ) is that the features of tubeless are already pretty much available in the various tubular and tubed tyres.

MTBs never discovered tubular tyres (but cyclocross did) and tubeless is the only other way to run low pressures safely. Hence MTB has tubeless and 700C has, for the most part, ignored it.

I'm not saying that tubeless has no place in road bikes, just that it's going to be a bloody hard sell.

Yours, heretically
Thog.
User avatar
Thoglette
 
Posts: 1029
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:01 pm

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby toolonglegs » Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:28 am

There are quite a lot of super light carbon Tubular MTB wheels turning up at the moment.
There are also more and more road wheels coming out tubeless specific.
Spose we will know in 5 years or so.
Image
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14354
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby jacks1071 » Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:52 am

Dr_Mutley wrote:i have run tubeless on my MTB for awhile now and love the puncture resistance, being able to run lower pressures, and reduction in wheel weight and RR

I am surprised there arent many tubeless tire options in the roady world... so my questions are:

1) Has anyone tried non-tubless tires as tubeless? if so have they stuck to the rim? have they failed in anyway?
I am aware of the greater pressure factor in road tires, but i am wondering if the beads on normal road tires are sufficient to run them tubeless, similar to non-tubeless MTB tires... I have run slicks non-tubeless slicks on my MTB at 70 or 80psi without problems so hence my curiosity? All of my MTB tires i have used tubless were non-tubeless tires...

2) Has anyone experimented with the rim tape?
anyone used the fibreglass tape from hardware shops similar to the ghetto tubless setups used extensively in the MTB world? Anyone tried stretching a cutdown MTB tube or 650c tube onto a 700 rim to use as a rim strip?

some interesting links to tubeless in MTBs are:
http://www.rotorburn.com/forums/showthr ... o+tubeless
videos here: http://www.rotorburn.com/forums/showpos ... tcount=161


I've done all of the above with MTB tyres - and the difference is MTB you are running 25-50PSI. On the road you're running 80-120PSI - huge difference.

You'll probably get a road tyre to seal in the same fashion as you can with a MTB one - but the bead isn't strong enough meaning it will stretch and fail possibly causing injury and or death. Ever noticed how a normal road tyre is pretty tight when new and after you've used it a bit they are real easy to get on and off? That doesn't happen with the tubless ones, the bead stays tight as.

The propper road tubless tyres have carbon fibre in the bead - I cannot describe how tight they are to get onto the rim. Also the tubeless tyres are cheap as anyway so no need to go ghetto.
Our Website is: http://www.pro-liteoz.com Find us on Facebook by searching for "Pro-Lite Australia"
User avatar
jacks1071
 
Posts: 2897
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:47 pm
Location: Mackay, QLD

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby jt_vic » Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:22 pm

I've been running Htchinson Atom tubeless tyres for the last 2 weeks, including around the bay 100km ride. I've done about 500km and I'm really happy with them. They feel like they are described; low rolling resistance at lower pressure. I had 320TPI Vittorias (AT) 130psi and get about the same RR out of the tubeless tyres (AT) 100psi. I found them easy to fit (despite putting one on the wrong eay around!) and could even get them to seal using a floor pump. I can't see why a system like this isn't going to become the norm rather than the exception. BTW I have Mavic Ksyrim rims, so I didn't need the tape.
User avatar
jt_vic
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:46 pm
Location: Newborough, Vic

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby waynohh » Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:40 am

Road tubeless here to stay. If Shimano's 7850SL wheel set wasn't successful, then they wouldn't have put the money into the tubeless 6700 wheel set. Similarly Campy wouldn't have jumped aboard.
waynohh
 
Posts: 1041
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 8:05 am

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby jacks1071 » Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:23 pm

waynohh wrote:Road tubeless here to stay. If Shimano's 7850SL wheel set wasn't successful, then they wouldn't have put the money into the tubeless 6700 wheel set. Similarly Campy wouldn't have jumped aboard.


You don't need to spend heaps on those wheels - you can convert just about any road clincher wheel to tubeless with a $10 roll of stans rim tape.
Our Website is: http://www.pro-liteoz.com Find us on Facebook by searching for "Pro-Lite Australia"
User avatar
jacks1071
 
Posts: 2897
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:47 pm
Location: Mackay, QLD

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby waynohh » Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:51 am

What does Shimano's development costs have to do with DIY tubeless?
waynohh
 
Posts: 1041
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 8:05 am

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby MichaelB » Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:22 am

Having been supplied a set of the WH-7850-SL wheels as a warranty replacement for my 7801 set, I'm about to jump on the Tubeless bandwagon.

When I get a few minutes, I'll read this thread from start to finish again, but are there any other tyre people with tubeless tyres apart from Hutchinson that are readily available ?

Cheers

Michael B
User avatar
MichaelB
 
Posts: 6824
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 8:29 am
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby MichaelB » Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:38 am

Hmmm, seems that there is not other brands readily available, even in on-line stores.

Also seems that Hutchinson can't measure, with several reviewers stating that the 25C Intensive measures more like a 23c, and that the 23c Atom measure more like 21c.

So, the big question, $56 rather than $64, is do I go for the Fusion2 or Intensive ?

Plan is to use the wheels mainly for sportives and longer rides, and keep the Open Pro handbuilts for the training/wet rides.

Feedback ?
User avatar
MichaelB
 
Posts: 6824
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 8:29 am
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby a » Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:51 am

I used the stans kit to convert my neutrons.

Started with Fusion 2's. Loved the ride and the grip - but they dont seem to handle cuts too well. I got to around 1000km with no cuts, but then got a couple. They started growing. I retired the rear after ~1500km because of the cuts growing. The one that had gone through the casing and was growing was a particular worry.

Replaced it with an Intensive. Yes - it is more like a 23 than a 25 around a 23.5 acording to my digital calipers. It is a bit bigger than the Fusion. The ride on the Intensive is about as good as the Fusion, a bit slower perhaps but seems as grippy - maybe the slightly larger size counteracts the slighly less grippy rubber. Have done around 500 km and the rear is holding up wonderfully well - but then - so was the fusion at that stage. I'll have to report back after summer on the intensives durability.

All up - I think i'll stick with tubeless. Love the ride, love the grip, love the self healing, and I seem to be getting better at fitting them (lots of soap on the beads.....)
Last edited by a on Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
a
 
Posts: 131
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 12:23 pm

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby twizzle » Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:52 am

Intensive sounds like a training tyre to me.
I ride, therefore I am.
...real cyclists don't have squeaky chains...
User avatar
twizzle
 
Posts: 6382
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:45 am
Location: Taking a break.

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby a » Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:56 am

twizzle wrote:Intensive sounds like a training tyre to me.

One I find rides nearly as well as a conti gp4000 with chili. But without the paper thin sidewalls.....(both my sets of contis died due to sidewall cuts in the wet...)
a
 
Posts: 131
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 12:23 pm

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby MichaelB » Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:02 pm

In thinking more about going tubeless for the whole fleet of bikes (fixed gear and 2 wheelsets for the Argon18), I was a bit put off by the feedback from TLL that he couldn't get his Open Pro's to seal, but on another forum/review, another user had no issues.

Given that I'm a believer in doing things the whole hog, and the tyres on the Open Pro's needing replacement soon (need to wear out some GP4 seasons a bit more), am thinking about going for the Intensive's on the Open Pro wheelset, and the Fusion2 on the 7850-SL wheelset.

May even go for Intensive's on the Fixed gear as well. "Look Ma, One gear and no tubes ! " :D :D :D

Hmmm, anyone wanna buy some tyres ..... ????
User avatar
MichaelB
 
Posts: 6824
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 8:29 am
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby CoffsGal » Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:37 pm

My longer term experience with the Fusion 2 tubeless has been a little disappointing...the front tyre hasn't been too bad and is still in service at 5000km with only a few cuts, but on the rear I have gone through (ruined) two Fusion 2, both with many cuts and both with at least 2 patches on the inside where the cuts have been substantial. Have had about 2000km on each before they reachjed the end of their life. Of course any tyre can get cut and I have had GP4000S's also rendered useless with cuts, but maybe the Fusion 2 are more suited as a competition tyre and are not so good on roads where one might encounter glass debris.

Have had 4 instances where the selant hasn't sealed even though in two of those the puncture wasn't very big, and I have fitted a tube to get home. A good feature I noticed though was that a punctured tyre would always deflate slowly due to the resistance of the selant being forced though the puncture. I always had time to pull over safely on hearing the tell tale spit phht, phht, phht on each wheel revolution.

When needing to refit the Fusion 2 with sealant etc, due to having used a tube to get home, I found I needed to be quite meticulous in cleaning left over dried sealant from the bead, or it could cause 'burping' during subsequent rides. The sealant all washes off easliy with water.

I have since returned to using a GP4000S and tube on the rear and have noticed the much harsher ride. The Fusion 2 provide a much better ride, partly due to the lower pressure one can run and still achieve minimal rolling resistance.

If the Intensive are more robust and are more able to withstand cuts (as suggested on the Hutchison website), then they may be a better alternative for general riding.

Emma
User avatar
CoffsGal
 
Posts: 885
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:35 pm
Location: Mid North Coast NSW

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby MichaelB » Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:16 pm

Thanks for the feedback Emma.

It certainly appears that the Fusion2 is not a commuting/general use tyre.

Mind you, have seen GP4000 trashed within 250km due to a sidewall cut, yet the GP4 Season has done plenty of km with nary a mini cut !!!

I'll soon find out I guess :D
User avatar
MichaelB
 
Posts: 6824
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 8:29 am
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby toolonglegs » Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:20 pm

I did get the open pro's to seal...but not reliably.You really have to stretch the tape and probably would be advised to wrap it in at least 3 layers.I just found it less hassle to run tubed with that wheel as I also swapped the tyres a lot.
Image
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14354
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby jt_vic » Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:25 pm

MichaelB wrote:Hmmm, seems that there is not other brands readily available, even in on-line stores.

Also seems that Hutchinson can't measure, with several reviewers stating that the 25C Intensive measures more like a 23c, and that the 23c Atom measure more like 21c.

So, the big question, $56 rather than $64, is do I go for the Fusion2 or Intensive ?

Plan is to use the wheels mainly for sportives and longer rides, and keep the Open Pro handbuilts for the training/wet rides.

Feedback ?

:(

I replaced 23c with Hutchinson Atoms (supposedly 23c) and had to reduce wheel dia on the computer from 2133mm to 2114mm. They look much lower profile and narrower as well.
User avatar
jt_vic
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:46 pm
Location: Newborough, Vic

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby twizzle » Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:29 am

jt_vic wrote:
MichaelB wrote:Hmmm, seems that there is not other brands readily available, even in on-line stores.

Also seems that Hutchinson can't measure, with several reviewers stating that the 25C Intensive measures more like a 23c, and that the 23c Atom measure more like 21c.

So, the big question, $56 rather than $64, is do I go for the Fusion2 or Intensive ?

Plan is to use the wheels mainly for sportives and longer rides, and keep the Open Pro handbuilts for the training/wet rides.

Feedback ?

:(

I replaced 23c with Hutchinson Atoms (supposedly 23c) and had to reduce wheel dia on the computer from 2133mm to 2114mm. They look much lower profile and narrower as well.


Pedal faster. :twisted:
I ride, therefore I am.
...real cyclists don't have squeaky chains...
User avatar
twizzle
 
Posts: 6382
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:45 am
Location: Taking a break.

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby jt_vic » Thu Dec 03, 2009 8:23 pm

twizzle wrote:
jt_vic wrote:
MichaelB wrote:Hmmm, seems that there is not other brands readily available, even in on-line stores.

Also seems that Hutchinson can't measure, with several reviewers stating that the 25C Intensive measures more like a 23c, and that the 23c Atom measure more like 21c.

So, the big question, $56 rather than $64, is do I go for the Fusion2 or Intensive ?

Plan is to use the wheels mainly for sportives and longer rides, and keep the Open Pro handbuilts for the training/wet rides.

Feedback ?

:(

I replaced 23c with Hutchinson Atoms (supposedly 23c) and had to reduce wheel dia on the computer from 2133mm to 2114mm. They look much lower profile and narrower as well.


Pedal faster. :twisted:

I have been!
User avatar
jt_vic
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:46 pm
Location: Newborough, Vic

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby CoffsGal » Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:01 pm

jt_vic wrote:I replaced 23c with Hutchinson Atoms...


When I fitted the Fusion 2's back in April, the Atoms weren't available, so now I am wondering how the Atoms compare to the Fusion 2 and the Intensive as far as durability goes.

I am tempted to try the Intensives as they are promoted as having better cut resistance, but I am hesitant to have a heavier tyre (than the Fusion 2) as I use the same wheels for both training and crit racing (for road racing I use my zip 404 tubs).

So what are people's experience with the Atoms as far as durabilty?

And what are people's assessment of the Intensive as far as rolling resistance and inertia are concerned.

Emma
User avatar
CoffsGal
 
Posts: 885
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:35 pm
Location: Mid North Coast NSW

Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby jacks1071 » Thu Dec 03, 2009 10:40 pm

CoffsGal wrote:
jt_vic wrote:I replaced 23c with Hutchinson Atoms...


When I fitted the Fusion 2's back in April, the Atoms weren't available, so now I am wondering how the Atoms compare to the Fusion 2 and the Intensive as far as durability goes.

I am tempted to try the Intensives as they are promoted as having better cut resistance, but I am hesitant to have a heavier tyre (than the Fusion 2) as I use the same wheels for both training and crit racing (for road racing I use my zip 404 tubs).

So what are people's experience with the Atoms as far as durabilty?

And what are people's assessment of the Intensive as far as rolling resistance and inertia are concerned.

Emma


The Intensive's cut up very easily - way too soft for a "training" tyre. Mine are going OK but they arn't going to last big KMS. The Fusion 2's are excellent but they are a RACE tyre. I'll probably stick with Fusion 2's for racing but will go back to my Vittoria's Zaffiro's for training once these are worn out. The casing is good, they just need to develop the rubber more I think.
Our Website is: http://www.pro-liteoz.com Find us on Facebook by searching for "Pro-Lite Australia"
User avatar
jacks1071
 
Posts: 2897
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:47 pm
Location: Mackay, QLD

PreviousNext

Return to The Shed

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users



Popular Bike Shops
Torpedo 7 Torpedo7 AU
Ground Effect Ground Effect NZ
Chain Reaction Cycles CRC UK
Wiggle Wiggle UK
Ebay Ebay AU

“Bicycles BNA Twitter
“Bicycles BNA Facebook
“Google+ BNA Google+
“Bicycles BNA Newsletter

> FREE BNA Stickers
> BNA Cycling Kit