Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby toolonglegs » Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:32 am

Thoglette wrote:
herzog wrote:The puncture resistance is against all flats, not just pinch flats.


Why so? it makes no sense what so ever at first glance.



Because the sealant repairs the hole with out losing much pressure 90% of the time...most times I haven't even known I had a puncture until I take the tyre off and find a blob of sealant patching a hole.
The other 10% of the time unless it is a huge cut it will still repair itself but you may need to stop and leave the hole at the bottom of the rotation so it gets maximum fluid into the area then repump.
All I can say is from 30 plus punctures in 2007 to 1 puncture (due to a big cut) in 18 months on tubeless...works for me.
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by BNA » Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:28 am

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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby herzog » Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:28 am

Thoglette wrote:
herzog wrote:The puncture resistance is against all flats, not just pinch flats.


Why so? it makes no sense what so ever at first glance.

Is there any source of reliable info (not someone selling tubless systems)


Same reason cars and motorcycles went Tubeless years ago. Tubes are a vulnerable point of failure. It makes far more sense to use the tyre itself to seal the air against the rim, rather than a weak rubber bladder.

There's a wealth of material on the net. Many cycling forums have a Tubeless FAQ as a sticky or Wiki. Google is your friend.

As a rough rule of thumb a Tubeless solution will recover from a puncture up to 5mm diameter. The only thing that's going to stop you is a large gash in the tyre, and how common are they?

I'm still trying to work out why anyone would bother when there's such a huge selection of tubular and clincher tyres available.


Because it's the future. Tubes will only remain as the emergency fix.
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby CoffsGal » Tue Apr 21, 2009 5:39 pm

Ok, bits and pieces ordered...

3 of Hutchinson Fusion 2 Tubeless tyres from Wiggle at $65.71ea (700x23)
473ml Stans sealant at $16.42 (might do the mountain bike too).
2 of 44mm No Tubes valve stem at $11.51ea.
Yellow spoke tape ordered through LBS as none shown on Wiggle website.

Purchased 3 tyres to bring the order over $200 to qualify for free delivery...means I will aslo have a spare tyre in case of catastrophic damage from large cut etc.
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby Thoglette » Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:59 pm

toolonglegs wrote:
Thoglette wrote:Why so? it makes no sense what so ever at first glance.


Because the sealant repairs the hole with out losing much pressure 90% of the time...most times I haven't even known I had a puncture until I take the tyre off and find a blob of sealant patching a hole.
The other 10% of the time unless it is a huge cut it will still repair itself but you may need to stop and leave the hole at the bottom of the rotation so it gets maximum fluid into the area then repump.
All I can say is from 30 plus punctures in 2007 to 1 puncture (due to a big cut) in 18 months on tubeless...works for me.


Fair enough - I had the same effect moving from snazzy lightweight tyres to ones with a balistic nylon belt. But I can see where the sealant stuff is neat - it would have caught my recent flat (caltrop thorn worked its way through the tyre)

Sealant in tubes has (in my experience) been a messy and usually unhappy combination.
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby rustychisel » Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:04 pm

Ah, I see your problem.

TLL is in France, and French sealant smells like and has the consistency of camembert and can, in an emergency, be eaten. Hope this helps.
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby m@ » Wed Apr 22, 2009 2:49 pm

Thoglette wrote:Fair enough - I had the same effect moving from snazzy lightweight tyres to ones with a balistic nylon belt. But I can see where the sealant stuff is neat - it would have caught my recent flat (caltrop thorn worked its way through the tyre)

Sealant in tubes has (in my experience) been a messy and usually unhappy combination.


Except that your puncture-resistant belt increases rolling resistance, whereas going tubeless reduces it ;)

rustychisel - lol! :lol:
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby toolonglegs » Wed Apr 22, 2009 3:19 pm

mmmmmmm....french cheese :D .
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby colafreak » Wed Apr 22, 2009 3:45 pm

What about Tufo tyres? They're basically a tubular with a clincher section underneath.

You push the tyre into the rim until it seats into the rim edges then pump it up and it acts like a tubular.

Haven't tried them myself, but seems like it'd be even easier than tubeless, lower rolling resistance (although doesn't EVERYTHING seem to give you lower rr??) and if you wanted, you could squirt your gap sealant into the tyre as well. Best of all three worlds.
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby toolonglegs » Wed Apr 22, 2009 3:54 pm

Yeah I have seen those Tufo clincher / singles ...but thought they were expensive and never knew wereto get them.Sealant in tubes isn't great and rarely seals the hole.Also means you need to carry a spare tyre incase of puncture.
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby colafreak » Wed Apr 22, 2009 4:02 pm

Not for the Tufo's.

Can't put a tube in them as they're fully enclosed like a single.

They apparently make a glue that'll fix up to 2mm holes. Bigger than that and you're walking... much like singles... Guess that IS an advantage of tubeless of clincher/single hybrids, however with a >2mm hole in the tyre, you'd want to carry a $5 note to protect the tube from that section of tyre.
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby toolonglegs » Wed Apr 22, 2009 4:22 pm

I had a 5mm hole seal itself.I suppose another advantage of tubeless over tubed clinchers is if you do get a puncture it will not deflate as quickly as a blown tube will...gives you time to coast to a stop.But I am still not training on them all the time...tyres are a bit expensive for that...but once I have a few older ones lying around I will wear them out on training wheels.
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby toolonglegs » Wed May 06, 2009 6:01 pm

Set up my new Open Pro rim tubeless yesterday...only a few minutes longer than a tubed wheel to do.Was a bit worried because open pro rims have an insert in each spoke hole which is flanged at the top which means the tape can not sit smoothly on the rim as it has to lift up for each flanged spoke hole.But gave it a go anyway...pumped up OK but while getting ready for my ride and doing other things it lost about 30psi in an hour.Pumped it back up and headed out for 90minutes no problem,it had probably lost the same or a bit more in that ride time...pumped it up before bed and gave the wheel a spin.Went downstairs this morning and hard as a rock...sealant does wonders!.
PS I always let 90% of the CO2 out after intial inflation and refill with floor pump.
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby rustychisel » Wed May 06, 2009 6:31 pm

toolonglegs wrote:PS I always let 90% of the CO2 out after intial inflation and refill with floor pump.


Why?

A friend insists his tyres lose pressure after a CO2 refill and does the same as you... I thought it was molecular bollocks...???
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby toolonglegs » Wed May 06, 2009 6:33 pm

rustychisel wrote:
toolonglegs wrote:PS I always let 90% of the CO2 out after intial inflation and refill with floor pump.


Why?

A friend insists his tyres lose pressure after a CO2 refill and does the same as you... I thought it was molecular bollocks...???


No it's a well known truth.
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby CoffsGal » Tue May 19, 2009 6:21 pm

Tubeless tyres fitted...

Rear wheel...
Removed existing tyre.
Removed existing rim tape.
Cleaned rim channel with metho.
Fitted two layers of Stans yellow 21mm rim tape by pulling tight and smoothing down as I went.
Cut hole for valve stem.
Lightly filed rim valve hole to clear excess tape from hole.
Fitted Stans 44mm valve.
Fitted Hutchison Fusion 2 tubeless tyre completely (both beads).
Lubricated bead both sides with soapy water.
Pumped tyre with floor pump to 120psi to seat tyre (no leaks and easy inflation).
Released air and removed valve inner.
With valve at 8 o'clock position, squeezed 60ml Stans No Tubes Sealant through valve stem. (I used 60ml of No Tubes sealant as per the directions on the No Tubes website)
Refitted valve inner.
Inflated to 120psi with floor pump.
Swished the sealant around and rotated the wheel.
Checked for leaks with soapy water (there were none).

Repeated procedure with the front wheel but needed the air compressor to seat the tyre initially, where the rear wheel inflated immediately and very easily with the floor pump.

No sealant escaped at all, and the tyres remain at full pressure without any topping up (6 hours later). I will reduce pressure to 90psi before I take it for a test ride.

Will report soon on any noticeable differences to rolling resistance and ride quality etc...

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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby waynohh » Wed May 27, 2009 11:39 am

I inflated one tire on Ksyrium Elite with a floor pump easily, the other I needed to use CO2.

The exact same thing happend when I did my XM819/Crossmarks, 1 went up fine just with the floor pump.
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby trailgumby » Sat May 30, 2009 8:28 pm

*Bump*

Interested in your findings, Emma.
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby toolonglegs » Sat May 30, 2009 8:35 pm

I have given up on tubeless on my Open Pro rim...grrr.It just isn't suited to getting a good seal with the tape.I ran it tubeless for a while but it wasn't reliable...so it is Michelin Race 3's on the rear for a while...at least until I blow the rim and get something more suited.
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby drubie » Sun May 31, 2009 11:40 am

toolonglegs wrote:I have given up on tubeless on my Open Pro rim...grrr.It just isn't suited to getting a good seal with the tape.I ran it tubeless for a while but it wasn't reliable...so it is Michelin Race 3's on the rear for a while...at least until I blow the rim and get something more suited.


That's not good news - I was waiting for Coffsgall to get back to us on the success or otherwise of her conversion before stumping up the cash on the commuter. I'd rather fix flats than try to remount tubeless tyres in the dark and rain though. Was it just the rim or is the tubeless kit itself a bit flawed?
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby MountGower » Sun May 31, 2009 11:55 am

I'm assumong Toolong is talking about the seal of the tape over the spoke holes, not the bead and tyre. I may be wrong. You can tell if this will be a problem on your wheels by running your finger over the hole to ensure it is smooth.

Toolong, how lumpy are they? This will sound ignorant of me or just plain rough, but could you file them smooth without making the hole too much larger?
Last edited by MountGower on Sun May 31, 2009 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby herzog » Sun May 31, 2009 12:00 pm

drubie wrote: I'd rather fix flats than try to remount tubeless tyres in the dark and rain though.


Doesn't work like that.

In the extremely rare situation where you were to get a flat with a tubeless setup, the remedy is the same. You stick a good tube in.

The good part is that you may never need to do it.

You then convert it back to tubeless when you're back home, in a nice warm dry environment.
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby MountGower » Sun May 31, 2009 12:02 pm

G'day Herzog

How easy is it to get the tubeless valve out to put the tube in? Do you need to replace (with a new one) the tubeless valve, or can it be reused (when converting back)?
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby herzog » Sun May 31, 2009 12:57 pm

MountGower wrote:G'day Herzog

How easy is it to get the tubeless valve out to put the tube in? Do you need to replace (with a new one) the tubeless valve, or can it be reused (when converting back)?


Removing the valve is a 10 second job. You just unthread the little locknut and pull it out and stick it in your pocket.

Yes indeed, you can then re-use it again when you remove the emergency inner-tube.

Here's a pic of tubeless presta valves I posted in another thread. Note the core is removable for sealant insertion.

Image
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby CoffsGal » Sun May 31, 2009 1:02 pm

Well Traily and Drubes,

You have asked at just the right moment...have had the tubeless for a couple of weeks now and was going to report that they must work because I have done 300km and not one flat in that time :) ...but today we went riding and got caught in the rain at the top of the mountain, with us all sheltering under a tourist map shelter...when the rain had finally stopped we headed back down the hill, and as is common on wet roads, one can easily get a puncture...I didn't know I had a puncture though, as all I could notice was a strange spitting noise every few wheel revolutions...I stopped to see what was causing the noise when I noticed white drops sprayed all up the front of the downtube...on close inspection of the front tyre I found a piece of sharp gravel or glass embedded in the tyre and when I moved it air would escape, but only until I turned the puncture to the bottom, where the sealant sealed the leak...I picked the glass/gravel out of the tyre and turned the wheel around and the puncture sealed...tyre still seemed hard and I continued home...checked pressure when I arrived home and was still 90psi (pumped to 120psi yesterday for racing (came second in D grade by the way))

So that is one roadside puncture repair I avoided so far...

I have Ultegra rims and the rear one is offset which means the spoke holes are to one side of the rim, but the tape (two layers) seems to have sealed it ok)

Rolling resistance on these tubelss is definitely reduced, even though the GP4000S's I had previously were quite good, the tubeless are better..during the race I was consistently coasting faster and further than all the others...I am the only road rider in the area with tubless AFAIK...

So thumbs up so far for tubless...more reports as I get a few more kms up...

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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby ausdb » Sun May 31, 2009 1:51 pm

drubie wrote:
toolonglegs wrote:I have given up on tubeless on my Open Pro rim...grrr.It just isn't suited to getting a good seal with the tape.I ran it tubeless for a while but it wasn't reliable...so it is Michelin Race 3's on the rear for a while...at least until I blow the rim and get something more suited.


That's not good news - I was waiting for Coffsgall to get back to us on the success or otherwise of her conversion before stumping up the cash on the commuter. I'd rather fix flats than try to remount tubeless tyres in the dark and rain though. Was it just the rim or is the tubeless kit itself a bit flawed?


I'm in the same boat here, thinking of going tubeless as I'm in the middle of building a new set of wheels using the kinlin niobium 30 rims (deep V's but lighter) and if I am going to spend about $60 a tyre I might as well give it a try, plus I'm just about at the free shipping mark for some stuff at wiggle so why not. The rims should work ok based on the guy from wheelworks in NZ's experiences. Over on Rotorburn a user who writes for RIDE magazine says they are doing a review at the moment but is being a bit coy about the results as it will be in the next months issue

TLL you mention that they wear out pretty quickly, how many kilometres are you getting out of a set?
I'm 90kg and don't race or commute, I ride for fitness and in group (I guess training) rides with a bunch of like minded mates and average about 700-1000km a month on the road.
Also does anyone have any recomendation on what sort of CO² inflation system to get? I have a CO² cylinder in my shed that I use for my home brew which should cover the initial stage but only use a minipump on the bike at the moment.
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