Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby toolonglegs » Sat Mar 10, 2012 4:39 pm

jcjordan wrote:
Ross wrote:Tubeless seems like such a hassle and if Twizzle's experiences are anything to go by don't work particularily well. I'll stick with GP4000S and a tube.


I have to agree, not only is the effort high but the benefits low.
CONS
- can’t run a high enough pressure
- tires cost more
- still have to carry spare tubes
- messy to deal with
- really need to use a limited number of wheels with the specific rim
PRO
- maybe the tire won’t go down as quick
- lower weight (doubtful once you take into account the sealant)
- less pinch flats (I normally only get those when I hit something hard, once every 6-12 months)
- less rolling resistance (but compared to the normal pressure I like to run would most likely be higher than non-tubeless)
If I am going to go to all that trouble I may as well run Tubs. Can carry an old tire as a spare under the seat instead of the saddle bag, so about the same weight.


Show's you really have no idea what you are talking about.
The point is that you can run lower pressures... more comfort,better handling, lower rolling resistance.
Tyres aren't cheap but are no more than some other top end tyres.
Yes a spare tube is wise to carry.
Only messy if you need to put a tube in ...pretty rare.Mounting them is no mess if you know what you are doing.
They can be used on any rim with minimal set up. Though setting up a valve on a 50mm plus rim can be an issue.

THe tyre will go down slowly...if you get a big cut it will go down fast.
They are always heaver than a normal race tyre and tube combined...even before adding the sealant.
Zero pinch flats...nothing to pinch, more a mtb thing but happens on the road.
In all tests I have seen the rolling resistance is always less than any tubed tyre...and comparable with tubulars.

No they are not for every one... but get your facts right.
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by BNA » Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:11 pm

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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby CoffsGal » Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:11 pm

toolonglegs wrote:They can be used on any rim with minimal set up. Though setting up a valve on a 50mm plus rim can be an issue.

It is possible to purchase valve extenders with an external thread, onto which a nut can be screwed to keep the valve stem inplace in the rim...available from Jet Black...these valve extenders allow the valve to be removed from the original valve stem and used in the extender to allow easy access for adding or releasing air.

http://www.jetblackproducts.com/products/NT-AS0034

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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby jcjordan » Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:06 pm

toolonglegs wrote:
Show's you really have no idea what you are talking about.
The point is that you can run lower pressures... more comfort,better handling, lower rolling resistance.
Tyres aren't cheap but are no more than some other top end tyres.
Yes a spare tube is wise to carry.
Only messy if you need to put a tube in ...pretty rare.Mounting them is no mess if you know what you are doing.
They can be used on any rim with minimal set up. Though setting up a valve on a 50mm plus rim can be an issue.

THe tyre will go down slowly...if you get a big cut it will go down fast.
They are always heaver than a normal race tyre and tube combined...even before adding the sealant.
Zero pinch flats...nothing to pinch, more a mtb thing but happens on the road.
In all tests I have seen the rolling resistance is always less than any tubed tyre...and comparable with tubulars.

No they are not for every one... but get your facts right.


Sorry but from my experience I don’t see where I got it wrong.
I have tried a set of tubeless tires, they were the first version of tires from Hutchinson, and the ride was equivalent to Gatorskins vs. Force/Attack.
Once you take into account the cost of sealant, special rim tape and valves they cost a heck of alot more than any other good tire I have used.

As for handling any time I have run tires below 100psi I have always found them to provide a lot less handling on hard corners.

As for reduced rolling resistance I have yet to see a test, which was not done by a manufacture, which shows any real (i.e. statistically significant) improvement.
As for the mess, they seem to provide that even before you get to the point of cutting them. Both the people I know that have tried tubeless (Twizzle being one) have managed to spray a room with sealant or had it leak out.
I can see the benefits of tubeless in MTB where pinch flats are common, but the only time I can even say I have possibly had a pinch flat it was caused by hitting something really hard on the road. I doubt that a tubeless would have stayed on the rim.
If you are going to go through all the hassles for so little gain I would still recommend Tubs, quick and easy to mount, little mess and with greater benefits.
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Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby toolonglegs » Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:44 am

Twizzle sprayed the room because he put a non tubeless specific tyre on as a tubeless set up. He won't do that again :-) .
On the tests I am going off some of the big mags here that have done test on dozens of tyres. I think the links are posted somewhere ... But I don't know where these days sorry.
Personally, I am a big powerful rider and I love running around 90 / 100 psi with them ... But that is always going to be a personal thing.
I only race on them... Too expensive to train on the race version tyres... They don't last for ever. But these days punctures are also a non issue for me... Very little glass on the roads in France.
To be honest though I will go tubular this year... I want a set of tough crit wheels which can also be used for cyclocross in winter... I managed to set up my cyclocross bike tubeless but they burped too much in races so I ran tubes ( 30 psi in a 32mm tyre doesn't leave much air to play with!).
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby Thoglette » Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:57 pm

toolonglegs wrote:To be honest though I will go tubular this year... I want a set of tough crit wheels which can also be used for cyclocross in winter... I managed to set up my cyclocross bike tubeless but they burped too much in races so I ran tubes ( 30 psi in a 32mm tyre doesn't leave much air to play with!)..


Well I'm about to put some Stan's sealant in my every-day road tubulars for the first time.......
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Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby toolonglegs » Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:28 pm

For cyclo cross it is more about being able to run low ( 26-28 psi ) with out the big pinch flat risk. Also I would save half a kilo or more even if the wheels were the same weight. The tubes I was running weighed a tonne!.
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby CoffsGal » Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:28 pm

toolonglegs wrote: I have asked for those in a few ships here but haven't found them yet!.
You would do better asking in a SHOP... :)

I actually purchased my valve extenders from Stans...before I knew Jet Balck had them on OZ...freight to OZ was a killer, but probably not so bad to Europe...
Stans have them here...and only 2grams each...
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby twizzle » Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:58 pm

After waiting two weeks, CRC screwed up the order. Turns out the road racing sealant is only avail in 125ml bottles, but they had listed a 500ml which turns out to be "elite racers" MTB sealant. I was going to just order the correct item and eat the shipping cost and get a refund on the incorrect items... but unless I buy a crapload of stuff, the shipping cost becomes a killer.
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby biker jk » Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:45 pm

toolonglegs wrote:Twizzle sprayed the room because he put a non tubeless specific tyre on as a tubeless set up. He won't do that again :-) .
On the tests I am going off some of the big mags here that have done test on dozens of tyres. I think the links are posted somewhere ... But I don't know where these days sorry.
Personally, I am a big powerful rider and I love running around 90 / 100 psi with them ... But that is always going to be a personal thing.
I only race on them... Too expensive to train on the race version tyres... They don't last for ever. But these days punctures are also a non issue for me... Very little glass on the roads in France.
To be honest though I will go tubular this year... I want a set of tough crit wheels which can also be used for cyclocross in winter... I managed to set up my cyclocross bike tubeless but they burped too much in races so I ran tubes ( 30 psi in a 32mm tyre doesn't leave much air to play with!).
Coffs gal... You are very often around these days!... I have asked for those in a few ships here but haven't found them yet!.


Shimano which manufactures both rims (with and without tubes) says that rolling resistance is reduced by approximately 20% compared to using tubes. This is due to the absence of friction between the tyre and the tube. I'm not an advocate for either system but this is a fact.
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby jcjordan » Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:25 pm

biker jk wrote:
toolonglegs wrote:Twizzle sprayed the room because he put a non tubeless specific tyre on as a tubeless set up. He won't do that again :-) .
On the tests I am going off some of the big mags here that have done test on dozens of tyres. I think the links are posted somewhere ... But I don't know where these days sorry.
Personally, I am a big powerful rider and I love running around 90 / 100 psi with them ... But that is always going to be a personal thing.
I only race on them... Too expensive to train on the race version tyres... They don't last for ever. But these days punctures are also a non issue for me... Very little glass on the roads in France.
To be honest though I will go tubular this year... I want a set of tough crit wheels which can also be used for cyclocross in winter... I managed to set up my cyclocross bike tubeless but they burped too much in races so I ran tubes ( 30 psi in a 32mm tyre doesn't leave much air to play with!).
Coffs gal... You are very often around these days!... I have asked for those in a few ships here but haven't found them yet!.


Shimano which manufactures both rims (with and without tubes) says that rolling resistance is reduced by approximately 20% compared to using tubes. This is due to the absence of friction between the tyre and the tube. I'm not an advocate for either system but this is a fact.


I would love to see the actual figures as I doubt their accuracy across the range of application.

This is due to the fact that not all wheels have the special lip specifically for the application of tubless tires and I wonder if sealent was used during the testing.
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby twizzle » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:07 am

O.K. - decided to give the 'elite racers' sealant a go. First problem, it says on the label not to use CO2 to inflate the tyre... and the only way I can get the damn tire to mount up on the bead is to use CO2. :evil: It wasn't a problem when the Intensive was new, but it got some cracks in the rubber on one side now and doesn't want to push up against the rim to seal it. IMHO, the Intensive isn't a particularly tough tyre, it's looking pretty dead and now has six patches on the inside in less than 1000km of riding. So I inflated with CO2, then part deflated/inflated a number of times to try and purge the CO2.

Now, the sealant... it's like a concentrated "Stan's", thicker liquid and more beads. I'm sure I'll test it out properly within a week or two. :roll:

And I'd like to point out - I didn't coat a room in latex experimenting with a tubed tyre in a tubeless setup.... I coated the outside of my house. It's all good, it washes off it you don't leave it too long.
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby Cruiserman » Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:06 pm

jcjordan wrote:
Ross wrote:Tubeless seems like such a hassle and if Twizzle's experiences are anything to go by don't work particularily well. I'll stick with GP4000S and a tube.


I have to agree, not only is the effort high but the benefits low.
CONS
- can’t run a high enough pressure

How high a pressure do you want to run 110psi when I want is high enough but 85-90 is much more comfortable

- tires cost more

Than what $50 is pretty good for a premium tyre much the same as a GP and no tube to buy

- still have to carry spare tubes

Haven't carried one for the last 1000k - the previous one I gave to someone with a flat on the side of the road

- messy to deal with

In what way, put the on blow them up take out the valve stem stick some sealant in with a syringe and blow them back up again

- really need to use a limited number of wheels with the specific rim

Any wheel will work with rim tape, undrilled top bridge wheels are really easy however 2 way fit or tubeless specific are easier again so limited to any rim you like, guess that is a limitation.

PRO
- maybe the tire won’t go down as quick

Or at all in the general case. If you do get a destructive flat where the tyre does deflate and you are running tubeless rims the tyre will remain on the bead allowing much greater safety.

- lower weight (doubtful once you take into account the sealant)

Any weight penalty that you may have is more than made up for in not having to fix flats.

- less pinch flats (I normally only get those when I hit something hard, once every 6-12 months)

0 pinch flats there is no tube to pinch - hence the term tubeless

- less rolling resistance (but compared to the normal pressure I like to run would most likely be higher than non-tubeless)

All the testing indicates a lower rolling resistance at all pressures - but it appears that you like to believe some information when it suites you but disregard others when it doesn't. You don't work for Statistic do you?

If I am going to go to all that trouble I may as well run Tubs. Can carry an old tire as a spare under the seat instead of the saddle bag, so about the same weight.

I ran tubs for every day commuting - problem being a flat was a call to the sag wagon as the time to fix was too great to get to work in time. Went to tubed clinchers and all was good - however 8 punctures in 2400k made my mind up to try the tubeless track. 10000k later on to the second set of intensives and one flat when I ran over a hole and split the old worn rear tyre. Still riding the same glass strewn Canberra roads. So I guess you are right the hassle of putting on a set of tyres and some sealant far out weighs the care free puncture free approach to patches of glass on my ride to and from work each day, So much hassle intact that I have 4 brand new intensives waiting their turn for either myself or Robdog to wear out the current ones. I will never go back to the world of tubes and punctures.

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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby jacks1071 » Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:32 pm

biker jk wrote:Shimano which manufactures both rims (with and without tubes) says that rolling resistance is reduced by approximately 20% compared to using tubes. This is due to the absence of friction between the tyre and the tube. I'm not an advocate for either system but this is a fact.


There is no-way that this is correct, all the tyre tests I've read had the tubeless tyres quite a way down the list in terms of rolling resistance. They've got a ways to go if they want to beat a good tyre with a latex tube.
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby notwal » Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:09 pm

jacks1071 wrote:
biker jk wrote:Shimano which manufactures both rims (with and without tubes) says that rolling resistance is reduced by approximately 20% compared to using tubes. This is due to the absence of friction between the tyre and the tube. I'm not an advocate for either system but this is a fact.


There is no-way that this is correct, all the tyre tests I've read had the tubeless tyres quite a way down the list in terms of rolling resistance. They've got a ways to go if they want to beat a good tyre with a latex tube.

I'm not sure about this. The only test I've read put a tubeless Hutchie Fusion 2 somewhere in the middle in a crr test. In that test all the tyres were run on a smooth roller at a standard pressure of 120 psi. Both of these conditions would I expect show the tubeless at a disadvantage. For one the road is not smooth like a roller and other tests (see viewtopic.php?f=34&t=50833 ) show that road roughness puts optimum pressure at about 100 psi. Running at higher pressure on a smooth roller artificially prefers tyres with tubes but does not reflect real world conditions. For 2 the ideal running pressure for tubeless is a little less than that again ie where tyre distortion and tube squirm become a factor.
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby Thoglette » Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:47 pm

biker jk wrote: Shimano which manufactures both rims (with and without tubes) says that rolling resistance is reduced by approximately 20% compared to using tubes. This is due to the absence of friction between the tyre and the tube. I'm not an advocate for either system but this is a fact.


It's certainly a fact that a marketing droid at shimano span that line. It's even possible that they were able to arrange a test to get this result. Does it represent a general truth? No way of knowing but unlikely.

(I'm reminded of the year the Subaru WRX won best sports car of the year in some .au mag - The Lotus Elise and Porsche 911 were knocked out for "handling flaws". Seriously. )
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby Thoglette » Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:49 pm

Thoglette wrote:Well I'm about to put some Stan's sealant in my every-day road tubulars for the first time.......


Success - even if my tyre is now 60g heavier than before. :-) The only downside is that the Stan's has seeped between the tube and the tyre, leaving a weeny lump. But better than having to go through the sewing process for a slow leak.
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby sblack » Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:42 am

On my ride on the weekend I got to see a few different road setups in action and their effectiveness. The first puncture was a road tubeless setup using Joe's No Flats sealant. Some tie wire in the tyre that was only evident by the click sound every revolution as it hit the mudguard. Removed the wire to a bit of spray of sealant before it seamed to seal up ok. Still enough pressure in the tyre to ride on. Being behind the rider I was aware of a few more spits making their way out for the next 50 or so metres but after that it was all fine for the rest of the ride.

The second flat of the day was on my standard tyre and tube setup, tiny puncture hole from a small piece of glass that I'm pretty sure would have gone completely unnoticed if I was setup with tubeless and sealant.

Third flat was me again with my first ever pinch flat on a road bike. Another case of tubeless would have prevented the issue.

The other setup in action was a rider running sealant in his tube. Again it was only a small puncture hole but it failed to seal, instead spraying the sealant out as the tyre went down.

There where other flats over the course of the ride but nothing that showed results any different to the above. So I came to a couple of conclusions with that ride. Firstly the M4 and Hume Highway shoulders are crappy places to ride with far too much debris to avoid it all. Secondly, road tubless appears to work quite well and is definately worth trying out. I'll be placing my order today and be ready to give some feedback in this thread shortly.

I have one question for those with some experience though. Is the rim tape in the road tubless kits suitable for wider rims (19mm internal width) or will I need to order the wider tape?
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby Crawf » Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:25 am

sblack, 21mm tape is what you want.
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby Robdog » Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:28 am

Cruiserman wrote:
jcjordan wrote:
Ross wrote:Tubeless seems like such a hassle and if Twizzle's experiences are anything to go by don't work particularily well. I'll stick with GP4000S and a tube.


I have to agree, not only is the effort high but the benefits low.
CONS
- can’t run a high enough pressure

How high a pressure do you want to run 110psi when I want is high enough but 85-90 is much more comfortable

- tires cost more

Than what $50 is pretty good for a premium tyre much the same as a GP and no tube to buy

- still have to carry spare tubes

Haven't carried one for the last 1000k - the previous one I gave to someone with a flat on the side of the road

- messy to deal with

In what way, put the on blow them up take out the valve stem stick some sealant in with a syringe and blow them back up again

- really need to use a limited number of wheels with the specific rim

Any wheel will work with rim tape, undrilled top bridge wheels are really easy however 2 way fit or tubeless specific are easier again so limited to any rim you like, guess that is a limitation.

PRO
- maybe the tire won’t go down as quick

Or at all in the general case. If you do get a destructive flat where the tyre does deflate and you are running tubeless rims the tyre will remain on the bead allowing much greater safety.

- lower weight (doubtful once you take into account the sealant)

Any weight penalty that you may have is more than made up for in not having to fix flats.

- less pinch flats (I normally only get those when I hit something hard, once every 6-12 months)

0 pinch flats there is no tube to pinch - hence the term tubeless

- less rolling resistance (but compared to the normal pressure I like to run would most likely be higher than non-tubeless)

All the testing indicates a lower rolling resistance at all pressures - but it appears that you like to believe some information when it suites you but disregard others when it doesn't. You don't work for Statistic do you?

If I am going to go to all that trouble I may as well run Tubs. Can carry an old tire as a spare under the seat instead of the saddle bag, so about the same weight.

I ran tubs for every day commuting - problem being a flat was a call to the sag wagon as the time to fix was too great to get to work in time. Went to tubed clinchers and all was good - however 8 punctures in 2400k made my mind up to try the tubeless track. 10000k later on to the second set of intensives and one flat when I ran over a hole and split the old worn rear tyre. Still riding the same glass strewn Canberra roads. So I guess you are right the hassle of putting on a set of tyres and some sealant far out weighs the care free puncture free approach to patches of glass on my ride to and from work each day, So much hassle intact that I have 4 brand new intensives waiting their turn for either myself or Robdog to wear out the current ones. I will never go back to the world of tubes and punctures.



^Basically this ^.
Just started commuting to work last week and already been saved - for the second time this year - the ignominy of calling for help (having stopped to help a guy who had bought supposedly self-sealing tubes which weren't self-sealing and had to call the wife) when I discovered yesterday that I had no air in my rear tyre after riding home on Friday. Obviously got the puncture en route, but the tyre sealed enough to get me home.
Dug 2 pieces of glass out of the tyre, pumped up again and all seems well. Will do a final check this afternoon before riding again either tomorrow or Thursday. No mess, tyre stayed on the rim and a couple minutes spent getting the glass out. I won't be going back to tubes
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby hotshod » Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:49 pm

New to this forum group , but had been very interested in the discussion surrounding tubeless tyres for the road

Today I rode on my new Hutchenson Fusion3 and all I can say is WOW...!!!!
Living on the Far North Coast of NSW and riding on roads that have aggregate the size of a 20c piece this setup has made the roads so much smoother I'm truely amazed. Sure I read about the ride comfort BUT it is not until you experience it that it becomes reality.

I mounted the F3s on newish 2011 Campag Zonda's , But they were NOT 2-Way wheels made for tubeless. The inner rim doesn't have any spoke holes so that was helpful, But it does have a tiny tiny tiny hole about half a mm, I'm guessing its breather for wheel where the rim is welded, I applied 40 x 8mm length of cloth duct tape over it and added tubeless valves.
The tyres went on by hand , no levers required.

At this stage I have not added any sealant , I want to make sure they are holding pressure before the goop goes in , I bought 475mm of Stans.
Over night the rear dropped about 50 psi , but is now holding well after repostioning valve and adding a piece of old tube to the valve base where it engages on the rim. I might chase up some of Stans NoTube valves that have a round base, I have a feeling they might seat and seal better.

This new setup has made my Bianchi Oltre an extraordinary bit of kit to ride . 20 years ago I used to race on singles and always loved the quality of the ride , the Hutch tubeless have a different feel , but definitely smooth out a coarse surface. I don't get many flats and I was extremely happy with the Ultremo ZX that I had on the bike , and had never had a flat from them , but I can't see myself going back to HP clinchers after just 1 ride on the Hutch F3s, they appear to be a quality product that delivers great ride comfort .....
I guess time will tell ....

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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby jcjordan » Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:50 pm

Kinda giving tubles a go.

Bought a set of Tufo Tubular Clinchers.

These are great, ride like tubs.
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby Cruiserman » Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:34 pm

Hotshod. Go with the Stans 44mm valves as you are right the round base seals very well. I have them on my non 2 way fit Shamal Ultras. Be aware however that when you order them from Wiggle they come as a pair not as single valves like most. You only need to order one unit - not two as I did.
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby toolonglegs » Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:44 pm

jcjordan wrote:Kinda giving tubles a go.

Bought a set of Tufo Tubular Clinchers.

These are great, ride like tubs.


Yeah I am keen on giving there cx tyres a go next season...be interested in your experiences with the road one though.
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby ae86levin » Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:47 pm

I haven't read the 18 odd pages of this thread but thought I'd add my experience with road tubless.

I commute 23k's each way for work most days and got really sick of punctures in my tube tyres (gatorskins that were getting a bit worn) so thought I'd give tubless a go when it came time for new tyres. I bought the rim tape, tyres (Fusion 3), sealant, valves and extenders on line and only had one issue which was my doing. When fitting the first tyre I got impatient and used too much force which damaged the bead resulting in a blow out on the first ride. I haven't had the problem with the second tyre or the replacement I bought locally (same price as on line) as I was more careful mounting them.

The main benefit I see with road tubless is puncture resistance - I haven't had a flat since switching. That was around three months ago and I would have expected three or four flats in that time on my tube tyres based on previous experience.
The Fusion 3 rear tyre is getting pretty worn and has plenty of cuts so wear is probably not as good as a good tube tyre. Swapping the front to back is also more difficult as it's a much harder / messy task. My wheels were not tubless specific and I lose maybe 10psi overnight so they do lose more air thaan a tube but I pump my tyres every day or to two so that doesn't really bother me.
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Re: Tubeless tyre system for road bikes

Postby jcjordan » Sun Apr 08, 2012 8:37 am

toolonglegs wrote:
jcjordan wrote:Kinda giving tubles a go.

Bought a set of Tufo Tubular Clinchers.

These are great, ride like tubs.


Yeah I am keen on giving there cx tyres a go next season...be interested in your experiences with the road one though.


So far so good. Have found one small problem with the tufo valve extenders. You need to make sure that the end that connects to the tire is really tight to ensure a good seal. Was loosing about 15-20 psi during the day before my ride home.

Pulled the extender off and reinstalled and no problems since.

The feel of the tires is really nice though. Very much like tubs in terms of handling, which I have always found to be very differnt to clinchers.
James
Veni, Vidi, Vespa -- I Came, I Saw, I Rode Home
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